Torture in the US

[Peter]

An interesting comment about the above article:

The gentlemen was a Captain on Iwo Jima; now he's a retired Marine Corps General.

On Iwo Jima the Marines and Corpsmen knew their most likely fate if captured was a gruesome death, and I do not think there is a single example of one of them surviving capture on the island.

In spite of that potential brutality by the hands of the Japanese, the Marines treated their Japanese prisoners humanely (once they were processed back; many Japanese were shot down by front-line riflemen). They were able to gather valuable intelligence for the Okinawa operation, and they were able to employ their Japanese prisoners in their efforts to get other Japanese to surrender.

What the Marine Corps officer of his day wanted was for their enemy to obey the rules of war so that captured America boys would stand a chance for survival, and they reasoned that the only way forward to that goal was for the Marine Corps to obey the rules even if their enemy had not signed on to obey them.

The somewhat counterintuitive outcome, to some anyway, was it proved to be an excellent interrogation environment.

Hollywood has made many Americans think the only way to get information is torture. It's one of the worst ways to get information.

[Alex179]

I would say it is reading history where people have tortured other and gotten information, rather than picking out a single instance where it has worked the other way.   Hollywood does fuck things up a bit for most, if one takes their viewpoint seriously.   I would argue that Hollywood is against torture more than for it, if anything (depends on how you view the films).   I see Hollywood films as propaganda of mostly the Liberal variety.  Torture worked fine in every century leading up to the WW1 era, then you have where the Geneva convention came about and people started adding rules to war (no torture is just one).   Wars then became more policing than usual and really were never the same due to how strategically they were limited by the new rules.

[Peter]

I would say it is reading history where people have tortured other and gotten information, rather than picking out a single instance where it has worked the other way.

   

By historical, do you mean the tens of thousands of people who were tortured into confessing to witchcraft and boinking the devil?  Sure, torture has a great track record of providing valuable and reliable evidence through the centuries.

Wars then became more policing than usual and really were never the same due to how strategically they were limited by the new rules.

You say that like it's a bad thing.  Would you like to go back to the old days of razing cities to the ground and killing, raping and torturing all the inhabitants?  Would you still oppose the Geneva conventions if your home town was invaded and I was raping your mum to death in front of you?

[Alex179]

Yes.   We would be able to have Viking style raiding again lol.  I own a gun, so it is likely that I would die before I would witness someone rape my mother.

[Peter]

Also, how about the destruction of the order of the Knights Templar, who were tortured into giving false confessions and burned at the stake when they became politically inconvenient?

In 1305, the new Pope Clement V, based in France, sent letters to both the Templar Grand Master Jacques de Molay and the Hospitaller Grand Master Fulk de Villaret to discuss the possibility of merging the two Orders. Neither was amenable to the idea but Pope Clement persisted, and in 1306 he invited both Grand Masters to France to discuss the matter. De Molay arrived first in early 1307, but de Villaret was delayed for several months. While waiting, De Molay and Clement discussed charges that had been made two years prior by an ousted Templar. It was generally agreed that the charges were false but Clement sent King Philip IV of France a written request for assistance in the investigation. King Philip was already deeply in debt to the Templars from his war with the English and decided to seize upon the rumors for his own purposes. He began pressuring the Church to take action against the Order, as a way of freeing himself from his debts.[21]

On Friday October 13, 1307 (a date incorrectly linked with the origin of the Friday the 13th superstition),[22][23] Philip ordered de Molay and scores of other French Templars to be simultaneously arrested. The Templars were charged with numerous heresies and tortured to extract false confessions of blasphemy. The confessions, despite having been obtained under duress, caused a scandal in Paris. After more bullying from Philip, Pope Clement then issued the bull Pastoralis Praeeminentiae on November 22, 1307, which instructed all Christian monarchs in Europe to arrest all Templars and seize their assets.[24]

Pope Clement called for papal hearings to determine the Templars' guilt or innocence, and once freed of the Inquisitors' torture, many Templars recanted their confessions. Some had sufficient legal experience to defend themselves in the trials, but in 1310 Philip blocked this attempt, using the previously forced confessions to have dozens of Templars burned at the stake in Paris.[25][26]

With Philip threatening military action unless the Pope complied with his wishes, Pope Clement finally agreed to disband the Order, citing the public scandal that had been generated by the confessions. At the Council of Vienne in 1312, he issued a series of papal bulls, including Vox in excelso, which officially dissolved the Order, and Ad providam, which turned over most Templar assets to the Hospitallers.[28]

[Peter]

Yes.   We would be able to have Viking style raiding again lol.  I own a gun, so it is likely that I would die before I would witness someone rape my mother.

Lets hope for your sake that your possession of a gun results in your death, and not your capture and torture.  You should keep it under your pillow in case you get a no-knock raid by SWAT in the middle of the night because someone made up some bullshit during torture that lead the authorities to your address.

[Alex179]

I would be harder to capture with a gun.   Putting it under your pillow really isn't going to do much and generally a bad idea.  I am a really light sleeper, so me waking up at the sound of my door opening (of my apartment) let alone someone breaking the door down, is more than enough to wake me up (kinda sucks to be that easy to wake up).  The SWAT would set off the alarm and I would grab my gun (which is convenient).   I either would shoot myself or make them have to shoot me.  I am not important enough for a SWAT raid, as I keep a low profile.   I don't have any dark secrets that would remotely link me to being a suspect in something serious.   I smoke weed, that is the extent of my illegal activity for the most part.   They won't raid my apartment because I toke up every once in a while.   At most they would want is some drug related connections.   I am not a politically motivated person as I see it all as a waste, so it is doubtful that I would be targeted for that reason.

I don't live with my mother anyways haha.  It would be not likely that I would witness her rape. The SWAT wouldn't rape her from what I have understood from their tactics.   They are not Vikings.   She is of no importance politically, so it is doubtful that she would be a target.

It would have been nice if the Knights Templar had never existed, let alone have to be taken out that way.   They had some secrets and had some real problems.   It would have been best if the Pope and the Papacy in general were destroyed, let alone the Knights Templar.   

[Parts]

Give me a few days and I will get you to sign a confession that you killed Kennedy

[Peter]

I would be harder to capture with a gun.   Putting it under your pillow really isn't going to do much and generally a bad idea.  I am a really light sleeper, so me waking up at the sound of my door opening (of my apartment) let alone someone breaking the door down, is more than enough to wake me up (kinda sucks to be that easy to wake up).  The SWAT would set off the alarm and I would grab my gun (which is convenient).   I either would shoot myself or make them have to shoot me.  I am not important enough for a SWAT raid, as I keep a low profile.   I don't have any dark secrets that would remotely link me to being a suspect in something serious.   I smoke weed, that is the extent of my illegal activity for the most part.   They won't raid my apartment because I toke up every once in a while.   At most they would want is some drug related connections.   I am not a politically motivated person as I see it all as a waste, so it is doubtful that I would be targeted for that reason.

You don't think pot is enough to warrant a SWAT raid?  Think again.

Andrew Diotaiuto has returned repeatedly to his grave at North Haven’s All Saints Cemetery.

    He sometimes makes two or three trips a day from his home in East Haven.

    Burying a child is always painful, but the last moments of his son’s life are especially troubling.

    On Aug. 5, Anthony Diotaiuto was shot to death by a SWAT team from the Sunrise, Fla., Police Department during a dawn narcotics raid in the home he shared and helped buy with his mother, Marlene Whittier.

    According to police, he was found with about 2 ounces of marijuana, plastic bags and a weight scale.

On Oct. 14, 1999, at 1:30 a.m. in Albuquerque, N.M., Larry Harper - despondent and unemployed - called his brother and said he was going to commit suicide. The brother alerted police, and nine SWAT team members were dispatched to a picnic area, where Harper was sitting with a gun. After chasing Harper into a stand of juniper bushes, a sniper shot him dead after SWAT officers denied arriving family members the chance to talk to him. The city later settled a lawsuit for $200,000. The city dismantled the SWAT team after the incident.

On July 12, 1998, acting on a single tip that Pedro Oregon Navarro was dealing drugs, a team of Houston officers charged into the apartment of the 22-year-old, who picked up a handgun. The officers unleashed some 30 shots, hitting Navarro 12 times, nine times in the back. No drugs were found.

On Oct. 12, 1995, at 2:30 a.m., Stephen Medford Shively, a college student in Topeka, Kan., was alarmed when several men battered down his door. He called 911, then grabbed a gun and fired through the door, killing an officer. Officers returned fire from the other side of the door, wounding Shively. A Kansas jury acquitted him of murder charges, saying that he acted in self-defense, and an appeals court concluded that officers used misleading information to obtain a warrant.

On April 15, 1995, a Dodge County team raided the trailer of Scott Bryant, a 29-year-old technical college student who was living in Beaver Dam with his 8-year-old son. As the first officer to smash through the door was placing Bryant on a couch to be handcuffed, Detective Robert Neuman rushed in and delivered a fatal bullet to Bryant's chest. A small amount of marijuana was found in the trailer. While no charges were ever filed against the detective, the county paid $950,000 to settle a federal civil rights lawsuit filed by Bryant's family.

On Aug. 9, 1994, in Riverside County, Calif., 87-year-old Donald Harrison and his 77-year-old wife, Elsie, were asleep in their mobile home when deputies smashed in looking for a drug lab. Donald died of a heart attack four days later. It turned out that police had the wrong place, despite a detailed description of the suspect home, which was a different color than the Harrisons' trailer.

I don't live with my mother anyways haha.  It would be not likely that I would witness her rape. The SWAT wouldn't rape her from what I have understood from their tactics.   They are not Vikings.   She is of no importance politically, so it is doubtful that she would be a target.

Perhaps if people like you keep supporting torture and your country turns into a complete shithole, the rape and torture of family members will become a common strategy to extract confessions.  It wouldn't be the first time that tactic's been used, and it won't be the last.

[Calandale]

I find it disturbing how many Americans on forums are actually in favour of torture.

WHY? Torture is FUN. 

[Calandale]

War is not a sport and it is not a game.   Stop being naive and trying to apply rules that shouldn't be there in the first place.   The Geneva convention is bullshit.  Although I am admittedly in favour of outright butchery instead of traditional warfare (gentlemen's code of stupidity).

No. The GC is NOT bullshit. Abandoning parts of it
will lead to it being abandoned entirely, and countries
being freer to commit crimes such as genocide, under
the argument that the so-called powers have abandoned
it. Which will gain traction. It is a powerful tool for global
opinion.

[Alex179]

Give me a few days and I will get you to sign a confession that you killed Kennedy

lol only if I were old enough.   Haven't gotten a hold of time travel yet.

[Alex179]

War is not a sport and it is not a game.   Stop being naive and trying to apply rules that shouldn't be there in the first place.   The Geneva convention is bullshit.  Although I am admittedly in favour of outright butchery instead of traditional warfare (gentlemen's code of stupidity).

No. The GC is NOT bullshit. Abandoning parts of it
will lead to it being abandoned entirely, and countries
being freer to commit crimes such as genocide, under
the argument that the so-called powers have abandoned
it. Which will gain traction. It is a powerful tool for global
opinion.

Yes, we don't want them to take out an entire race.   That doesn't mean when it happens, we will be able to stop it.   How about Turkey and those Armenians?

[Alex179]

I would be harder to capture with a gun.   Putting it under your pillow really isn't going to do much and generally a bad idea.  I am a really light sleeper, so me waking up at the sound of my door opening (of my apartment) let alone someone breaking the door down, is more than enough to wake me up (kinda sucks to be that easy to wake up).  The SWAT would set off the alarm and I would grab my gun (which is convenient).   I either would shoot myself or make them have to shoot me.  I am not important enough for a SWAT raid, as I keep a low profile.   I don't have any dark secrets that would remotely link me to being a suspect in something serious.   I smoke weed, that is the extent of my illegal activity for the most part.   They won't raid my apartment because I toke up every once in a while.   At most they would want is some drug related connections.   I am not a politically motivated person as I see it all as a waste, so it is doubtful that I would be targeted for that reason.

You don't think pot is enough to warrant a SWAT raid?  Think again.

Andrew Diotaiuto has returned repeatedly to his grave at North Haven’s All Saints Cemetery.

    He sometimes makes two or three trips a day from his home in East Haven.

    Burying a child is always painful, but the last moments of his son’s life are especially troubling.

    On Aug. 5, Anthony Diotaiuto was shot to death by a SWAT team from the Sunrise, Fla., Police Department during a dawn narcotics raid in the home he shared and helped buy with his mother, Marlene Whittier.

    According to police, he was found with about 2 ounces of marijuana, plastic bags and a weight scale.

On Oct. 14, 1999, at 1:30 a.m. in Albuquerque, N.M., Larry Harper - despondent and unemployed - called his brother and said he was going to commit suicide. The brother alerted police, and nine SWAT team members were dispatched to a picnic area, where Harper was sitting with a gun. After chasing Harper into a stand of juniper bushes, a sniper shot him dead after SWAT officers denied arriving family members the chance to talk to him. The city later settled a lawsuit for $200,000. The city dismantled the SWAT team after the incident.

On July 12, 1998, acting on a single tip that Pedro Oregon Navarro was dealing drugs, a team of Houston officers charged into the apartment of the 22-year-old, who picked up a handgun. The officers unleashed some 30 shots, hitting Navarro 12 times, nine times in the back. No drugs were found.

On Oct. 12, 1995, at 2:30 a.m., Stephen Medford Shively, a college student in Topeka, Kan., was alarmed when several men battered down his door. He called 911, then grabbed a gun and fired through the door, killing an officer. Officers returned fire from the other side of the door, wounding Shively. A Kansas jury acquitted him of murder charges, saying that he acted in self-defense, and an appeals court concluded that officers used misleading information to obtain a warrant.

On April 15, 1995, a Dodge County team raided the trailer of Scott Bryant, a 29-year-old technical college student who was living in Beaver Dam with his 8-year-old son. As the first officer to smash through the door was placing Bryant on a couch to be handcuffed, Detective Robert Neuman rushed in and delivered a fatal bullet to Bryant's chest. A small amount of marijuana was found in the trailer. While no charges were ever filed against the detective, the county paid $950,000 to settle a federal civil rights lawsuit filed by Bryant's family.

On Aug. 9, 1994, in Riverside County, Calif., 87-year-old Donald Harrison and his 77-year-old wife, Elsie, were asleep in their mobile home when deputies smashed in looking for a drug lab. Donald died of a heart attack four days later. It turned out that police had the wrong place, despite a detailed description of the suspect home, which was a different color than the Harrisons' trailer.

I don't live with my mother anyways haha.  It would be not likely that I would witness her rape. The SWAT wouldn't rape her from what I have understood from their tactics.   They are not Vikings.   She is of no importance politically, so it is doubtful that she would be a target.

Perhaps if people like you keep supporting torture and your country turns into a complete shithole, the rape and torture of family members will become a common strategy to extract confessions.  It wouldn't be the first time that tactic's been used, and it won't be the last.

I never have more than a quarter of an ounce on me at a time.   I also don't have scales or any other thing that would pertain to selling in my apartment.

The whole world is turning into a shithole and torture is just a part of what is going on wrong lol.   It sure won't be the last time it is used, as torture will be around well after everyone on this board is dead.   That is unless everyone dies, then there will be no humans to torture each other.

[Peter]

I would be harder to capture with a gun.   Putting it under your pillow really isn't going to do much and generally a bad idea.  I am a really light sleeper, so me waking up at the sound of my door opening (of my apartment) let alone someone breaking the door down, is more than enough to wake me up (kinda sucks to be that easy to wake up).  The SWAT would set off the alarm and I would grab my gun (which is convenient).   I either would shoot myself or make them have to shoot me.  I am not important enough for a SWAT raid, as I keep a low profile.   I don't have any dark secrets that would remotely link me to being a suspect in something serious.   I smoke weed, that is the extent of my illegal activity for the most part.   They won't raid my apartment because I toke up every once in a while.   At most they would want is some drug related connections.   I am not a politically motivated person as I see it all as a waste, so it is doubtful that I would be targeted for that reason.

You don't think pot is enough to warrant a SWAT raid?  Think again.

Andrew Diotaiuto has returned repeatedly to his grave at North Haven’s All Saints Cemetery.

    He sometimes makes two or three trips a day from his home in East Haven.

    Burying a child is always painful, but the last moments of his son’s life are especially troubling.

    On Aug. 5, Anthony Diotaiuto was shot to death by a SWAT team from the Sunrise, Fla., Police Department during a dawn narcotics raid in the home he shared and helped buy with his mother, Marlene Whittier.

    According to police, he was found with about 2 ounces of marijuana, plastic bags and a weight scale.

On Oct. 14, 1999, at 1:30 a.m. in Albuquerque, N.M., Larry Harper - despondent and unemployed - called his brother and said he was going to commit suicide. The brother alerted police, and nine SWAT team members were dispatched to a picnic area, where Harper was sitting with a gun. After chasing Harper into a stand of juniper bushes, a sniper shot him dead after SWAT officers denied arriving family members the chance to talk to him. The city later settled a lawsuit for $200,000. The city dismantled the SWAT team after the incident.

On July 12, 1998, acting on a single tip that Pedro Oregon Navarro was dealing drugs, a team of Houston officers charged into the apartment of the 22-year-old, who picked up a handgun. The officers unleashed some 30 shots, hitting Navarro 12 times, nine times in the back. No drugs were found.

On Oct. 12, 1995, at 2:30 a.m., Stephen Medford Shively, a college student in Topeka, Kan., was alarmed when several men battered down his door. He called 911, then grabbed a gun and fired through the door, killing an officer. Officers returned fire from the other side of the door, wounding Shively. A Kansas jury acquitted him of murder charges, saying that he acted in self-defense, and an appeals court concluded that officers used misleading information to obtain a warrant.

On April 15, 1995, a Dodge County team raided the trailer of Scott Bryant, a 29-year-old technical college student who was living in Beaver Dam with his 8-year-old son. As the first officer to smash through the door was placing Bryant on a couch to be handcuffed, Detective Robert Neuman rushed in and delivered a fatal bullet to Bryant's chest. A small amount of marijuana was found in the trailer. While no charges were ever filed against the detective, the county paid $950,000 to settle a federal civil rights lawsuit filed by Bryant's family.

On Aug. 9, 1994, in Riverside County, Calif., 87-year-old Donald Harrison and his 77-year-old wife, Elsie, were asleep in their mobile home when deputies smashed in looking for a drug lab. Donald died of a heart attack four days later. It turned out that police had the wrong place, despite a detailed description of the suspect home, which was a different color than the Harrisons' trailer.

I don't live with my mother anyways haha.  It would be not likely that I would witness her rape. The SWAT wouldn't rape her from what I have understood from their tactics.   They are not Vikings.   She is of no importance politically, so it is doubtful that she would be a target.

Perhaps if people like you keep supporting torture and your country turns into a complete shithole, the rape and torture of family members will become a common strategy to extract confessions.  It wouldn't be the first time that tactic's been used, and it won't be the last.

I never have more than a quarter of an ounce on me at a time.   I also don't have scales or any other thing that would pertain to selling in my apartment.

The whole world is turning into a shithole and torture is just a part of what is going on wrong lol.   It sure won't be the last time it is used, as torture will be around well after everyone on this board is dead.   That is unless everyone dies, then there will be no humans to torture each other.

It doesn't take even a quarter of an ounce; just for the SWAT to get the wrong house or for some asshole to give an anonymous tip because they don't like you.  If said asshole was to say they heard you planning a bombing instead of selling them some pot, you'd be shipped off for some quality time in one of the CIA secret prisons, and if you were very lucky, you'd be left in a dumpster in Cairo after 5 years of being tortured.