Torture in the US

[Dexter Morgan]

Wow, there are a lot of terrorist-loving America haters in here

[Peter]

Wow, there are a lot of terrorist-loving America haters in here

I'm not a terrorist-loving America hater.  I'm a terrorist-hating America hater.

[Calandale]

You are all aware that we torture our own soldiers,
using pretty much the same techniques as are used
against our enemies, in order to prepare them for them,
aren't you? 

[Pyraxis]

Smart of us.

[SovaNu]

oh noone else found that funny? *points to funballs fun rant*

[Calandale]

Smart of us.

Depends.  We don't hit the average GI with
the whole battery, but MI gets it all. Even if they're
stationed in Florida, to listen in on cuban radio
transmissions. 

[Pyraxis]

Why does that make it depend? Do you think we train people in it who don't need to be trained and it causes harm or something?

[Calandale]

Why does that make it depend? Do you think we train people in it who don't need to be trained and it causes harm or something?

Yes. I don't think that we should reveal all
our techniques to so many. It violates the
'need to know' maxim. It's also not good for
PR.

Fuck - you're making me answer this as though
I was working. 

[Pyraxis]

I'm feeling intellectual. 

If you believe in "need to know", then why do you have objections to Dunc's stonewalling?

[Calandale]

I'm feeling intellectual. 

If you believe in "need to know", then why do you have objections to Dunc's stonewalling?

Big difference, I expected dunc to have some honor.
I don't expect any such from the US government.

[Pyraxis]

Why the difference?

I thought you were using the site as a political experiment.

[Calandale]

Why the difference?

I thought you were using the site as a political experiment.

1. Smaller group. Less rewards.

2. Even IF, I could still have some idealistic hopes, no?

But, in some ways, I've swum into water too deep for the issue.
While what I said was true, there's a problem with the connection
between the topics. I was giving the advice about the "smart of
us" line, as though I were analyzing the best practices of an administration
which wanted to conduct torture, in an environment where it was unpopular.

As though these things were given. Personally, I'm not sure what MY views
on torture are. It seems ugly, so I have a reaction against it. Evidence seems
to show mixed results as to efficacy. BUT, certain techniques are claimed to
be effective. Does a country have a right to use effective but ugly techniques?
I'm not sure. I'm not sure a country has a right to exist.

[Pyraxis]

Does a country have a right to use effective but ugly techniques?
I'm not sure. I'm not sure a country has a right to exist.

 

What's the argument in favor of countries not having a right to exist?

[Calandale]

Does a country have a right to use effective but ugly techniques?
I'm not sure. I'm not sure a country has a right to exist.

 

What's the argument in favor of countries not having a right to exist?

Well, they have a purpose of their own,
which seems to have little to do with those
supposedly forming the 'social contract' which
created them. Wars are almost the perfect example:
there have been few (if any) wars which should have
been fought - even defensive wars - from the point of
view of the masses.

[Pyraxis]

Here's where having a degree in art fucks me over, because I never learned the official term for - looking for a ghost in the machine? - the error of seeing an active intelligence behind a system just because the pattern hasn't been figured out yet.

I don't think a country should be treated as a sentient entity. But that gets into the questions of what is an individual.