Women/family debate (split from ask McJ anything)

[Hypnotica_Gaze]

Indeed McJ

[McGiver]

now its lost forever.

nobody will take the time to read such wordy posts.

baby boomer men=

in case people were wondering what the basis of conversation on the previous page was about.

[Hibakusha]

and this is going to be about whining how nobody understands what McJ is saying

[McGiver]

[Hibakusha]

[Pyraxis]

the second i looked and saw that it was you who responded to my rant, i got worried that i left open some sort of loophole.

Oh don't worry, the softball question was just to draw you out.

i believe that the feminist movement has made it necessary for more likenesses in the sexes rather than an equality of the sexes.  their are no more defined roles, and the next generations of humans are left to suffer from this.

I'm not going to argue that latchkey kids and parents ignoring their responsibility to their children are good things, cause I agree with you there. But I disagree that the woman should by nature be the one raising the kids, and the man should by nature be working. How exactly do people suffer for a lack of defined roles? Odd statement from a guy who loves so much to buck authority.

i am not offered many options about being a man.  the workplace has become flooded and cutthroat.  there are not many options in the workforce, by and large.  this is due to women having to (by necessity) enter the workforce en masse.   

Oh, waah waah, you can't slack off 'cause you might get one-upped by a woman. So you'd rather encourage them out of the workplace. Self-preservation, I suppose, but not exactly men's most honorable hour.

[McGiver]

the second i looked and saw that it was you who responded to my rant, i got worried that i left open some sort of loophole.

Oh don't worry, the softball question was just to draw you out.

i believe that the feminist movement has made it necessary for more likenesses in the sexes rather than an equality of the sexes.  their are no more defined roles, and the next generations of humans are left to suffer from this.

I'm not going to argue that latchkey kids and parents ignoring their responsibility to their children are good things, cause I agree with you there. But I disagree that the woman should by nature be the one raising the kids, and the man should by nature be working. How exactly do people suffer for a lack of defined roles? Odd statement from a guy who loves so much to buck authority.

i am not offered many options about being a man.  the workplace has become flooded and cutthroat.  there are not many options in the workforce, by and large.  this is due to women having to (by necessity) enter the workforce en masse.   

Oh, waah waah, you can't slack off 'cause you might get one-upped by a woman. So you'd rather encourage them out of the workplace. Self-preservation, I suppose, but not exactly men's most honorable hour.

pt 1.  i knew it and baited you in case i was wrong.


pt.2.  why can't men carry babies to term, why cant men breast feed?  there is nothing wrong with a man, being mr mom, i am saying that it is not natural.  we (the sexes) are born wired differently, paternal instincts is not as popular as maternal instincts for a reason.  we are born wired differently and society does nothing to change those perceptions.
why do women show more emotion than men ( for the most part)?
why are women more nurturing than men (for the most part), even in their relationsships with each other?

women are better at it than men are, and i reiterate, it is the most notable of all professions.

should we just toss out a few generations of children till men acquire the skills necessary to raise children as well as women.  women are better than men in so many respects, whats more important tending to a life or making money?  i never said that women cannot do carreers as well as men.


pt.3  i am not afraid of a woman doing anything better than me in the workplace.  they can't.  neither can men.  i am the best at anything i endeaver, anything.
my position on this matter is that since women have entered the workplace there are fewer jobs for more people.  that has done nothing but advantage corporate greed.  they have used this opportunity to force people to complete against each other.  and now view nearly all labor as expendable.  and we are due to increased competition.
also, the lower wages and increased production means that two incomes are necessary quite often.
 you already agreed that latchkey kids and irresponsible parenting is not a good thing.  but you must choose between these two they are not mutually exclusive.
the competiotive workforce, makes it easy to be an irresponsible parent (two incomes to survive)  children are therefore being raised in factories of daycare.

[Lucifer]

one reason i have a problem with the womans movement is because it tells women that they need to go out into the job market.  tells women that being a mother is demeaning, its all about money...
back to the baby boomers greed.

not any more they don't, although yes, they did at one point.  now, it's more about recognising that the unpaid "social care" responsbilities women take on (not necessarily as an educated choice), with children, with the eldery, etc., should be recognised for what it is, and recompensed appropriately.

as for the rest of your argument re: feminism...  well, i shall be reading your respnose to pyraxis' question with interest... 

i agree with you about the lack of defined roles, actually, in some respects, in that i believe it's much easier for people with AS to function if there are very clear and firm boundaries/guidelines/whatever regarding societal roles.  of course, it can be incredibly restricting, especially if if one doesn't have the choice of which role one gets to play.  for instance, if one of those roles was, say feudal lord, and the other serf - i.e., no unionised labour movement; starve/die if you don't play the game their way, etc. - would you still want them?  cos that's a bit what it was like for women, until very recently.

[Lucifer]

fucking hell, mcj - you really are showing your true colours:

my position on this matter is that since women have entered the workplace there are fewer jobs for more people.

so women are not "people", then?   

can you not see how all your arguments are those being disseminated and encouraged by the ones with a vested interest in keeping the status quo in place?  i.e., the very people you purport to be fighting against.  if you're fighting women in the workplace, you're looking in the wrong place, cos, as usual, the divide and conquer strategy is working beautifully.  take a step back, and see who's actually winning, here.  in your scenario, women are stealing "people's" jobs, men are resentful, everyone's terrified cos their jobs are at risk...  get my drift yet?  and the fat cats sit there, quite happily, knowing they can tell the unions to fuck off whenever they feel like it, cos everyone's looking in the wrong place to balme someone.

looking at issues piecemeal like this never works, cos you always end up fighting the wrong foe.  the bigger picture tends to be more interesting, apart from anything else - men blaming women and women blaming men for all ills would be getting terribly boring, if the consequences weren't so horrifying.

[McGiver]

i agree about the roles and i have pointed out where the abuse  and responsibilities lie.
however i refuse to pay for the sins of my fathers generation.  menshould have been more respectful of their mates.  the idea of greed and self serving attitudes has destroyed the basic human strength: the tight clan (family or the most basic political structure).

women i feel have actually traded away most of their power for all this equality crap.  i believe that men were the puppets throughout history, and a woman was always calling the shots, after all they influenced each generation moreso than any other.

yes the men of the previous generation blew it (mainly from self serving greed), the women blew it to (but mainly out of survival instincts).  i, for one, as the resulting generation of male have had my right stripped from me.  i don't even get the chance to show that the baby boomers lack of responsibility makes me want to vomit.  show that i do not appreciate the fact that i came from yet another broken family.  to show that i choose to be responsible in defiance of everything i have been taught otherwise.

guess what the fuck i am going to do?

i am going to buck the trend and be exactly ddifferent fromall i've been taught, all i've known.
goddammit.

[McGiver]

fucking hell, mcj - you really are showing your true colours:


Quote
my position on this matter is that since women have entered the workplace there are fewer jobs for more people.
so women are not "people", then?   

pyraxis you are a good interpretor, and i am a bad communicator.
when did i say that women were not people?

who's showing their selective understanding colours, lucifer.

pyraxis do you care to translate or is it lost on you, also?

[McGiver]

fucking hell, mcj - you really are showing your true colours:

my position on this matter is that since women have entered the workplace there are fewer jobs for more people.

so women are not "people", then?   

can you not see how all your arguments are those being disseminated and encouraged by the ones with a vested interest in keeping the status quo in place?  i.e., the very people you purport to be fighting against.  if you're fighting women in the workplace, you're looking in the wrong place, cos, as usual, the divide and conquer strategy is working beautifully.  take a step back, and see who's actually winning, here.  in your scenario, women are stealing "people's" jobs, men are resentful, everyone's terrified cos their jobs are at risk...  get my drift yet?  and the fat cats sit there, quite happily, knowing they can tell the unions to fuck off whenever they feel like it, cos everyone's looking in the wrong place to balme someone.

looking at issues piecemeal like this never works, cos you always end up fighting the wrong foe.  the bigger picture tends to be more interesting, apart from anything else - men blaming women and women blaming men for all ills would be getting terribly boring, if the consequences weren't so horrifying.

and your argument is exactly how this slippery slope began tit for tat.

my argument is about individual responsibility and not tossing the kids to the side.

you are the one piece mealing it.
hippocrite.  i feel that's fair since that is what you basically called me.

[Lucifer]

i didn't call you a hypocrite at all - i merely suggested you take a wider view of things, as your argument is the classic argument used by people who are missing who's really responsible for various ills in the world.  if it ain't women stealing the jobs, it's blacks, or gays, or immigrants, or giving jobs to disabled people who can't actually do it...

now do you see what i mean?

and responsibility - both personal and collective - is one of my main bugaboos, possibly the greatest (although as the other is injustice, it's a close thing).  i agree with your take on resposnible parenting.  where we appear to differ, though, is that i look at collective as well as personal, and fight for the proper support which is needed by whoever chooses to take responsbility for bringing up children.  we actually agree on the first point - can you now see what i'm getting at on the second?

[McGiver]

before i read your post i would like to take back the name calling. 

this entire subject is very important to me (being the father of two girls possibly three).  i am very interested in making sense of this entire subject for my benefit of being able to raise them, responsibly.  for their benefit in the big picture.

i do not want to cheapen this debate (discussion) through cheap tactics of name calling.
can i ask your forgiveness and can we move forward in a professional manner and break this thing down and rebuild it the right way?

humbly,
-robert

[Lucifer]

* Lucifer shrugs.

water off a 's back, mcj.  i've already started, in the last post.  let's go from there, shall we?

(have to go to work now - i shall return...).