Wrong Planet.

[GalileoAce]

It's not that I disagree with the act of making the choices, but rather the choices themselves. Of those participating (including Illusions) in the argument Parts seems to be the only one being mature about it. Sure you can choose to be immature, but, like all other choices, it will lead to consequences based on those choices. Me loosing respect for you, being one possible consequence. I don't agree with Illusions point of view, and have no need to argue it with him, but I was interested in how he came to that point of view, so I probed that, but I did so in a mature manner.

The way you respond to your enemies is just as, if not more, important than the way you respond to your allies.

[The_Chosen_One]

It's not that I disagree with the act of making the choices, but rather the choices themselves. Of those participating (including Illusions) in the argument Parts seems to be the only one being mature about it. Sure you can choose to be immature, but, like all other choices, it will lead to consequences based on those choices. Me loosing respect for you, being one possible consequence. I don't agree with Illusions point of view, and have no need to argue it with him, but I was interested in how he came to that point of view, so I probed that, but I did so in a mature manner.

The way you respond to your enemies is just as, if not more, important than the way you respond to your allies.

Point is, the thread started to be something about Wankplanet, and probably some bitching and moaning that was happening there. Then it turned into an off-topic rant about Illusionists favourite thing; the Holocaust. Virtually all of us were never around during that period of history, and it means practically nothing to us (unless we had family members involved, which is highly unlikely) so it seems pretty futile carrying on a one-sided debate about something nobody else really gives a stuff about. At least with the original topic, bagging the shit out of WP and it's nanny state can be fun, but even that gets a bit tedious given the wankers there don't even care that they are being ridiculed. They just want their mummies and to hide in the closet till the nasty trolls go away.

Anyway, the war ended 60-odd years ago. Pfft. History. Let's consign it to the round-file of life and move on. 

[Al Swearegen]

It's not that I disagree with the act of making the choices, but rather the choices themselves. Of those participating (including Illusions) in the argument Parts seems to be the only one being mature about it. Sure you can choose to be immature, but, like all other choices, it will lead to consequences based on those choices. Me loosing respect for you, being one possible consequence. I don't agree with Illusions point of view, and have no need to argue it with him, but I was interested in how he came to that point of view, so I probed that, but I did so in a mature manner.

The way you respond to your enemies is just as, if not more, important than the way you respond to your allies.

Well that made for a very stern lecture GA.....but let's look at the big picture here.

You have decided that there ought to be a certain "right" of response to which you will enforce if not adhered to in the manner you would have it be. You are the apparent gauge to what is acceptable. You agree with Illusionist (the member who recently joined this forum with horrendously bigoted viewpoints and as a holocaust denier who insults all the memories of those affected by it. A poster who was kicked out of every other forum because of those hateful beliefs and who is only here because of the fact that the forum allows posters to have the choice to pretty much do or say as they like.) and you think it is fine him controlling the way he is to be treated here and how we conduct ourselves around him? Is that right? The "threat" of you losing respect for me, is that what Illusionist may have said to me (to control my actions) if he thought he may have some? Of course you say it now.

The freedom of choice does not go one way. It goes across the board. You would seek to inhibit that choice and restrict your own freedoms elsewhere. Odeon as the webmaster could kick out Illusionist and say "He was being too serious from now on you all have to be immature or else there will be consequences". I am betting you would have issue with it. Yet have no problem trying to do the opposite here.

I will behave in ways that are serious, silly, snarky, compassionate and a good number of other things and being a member of a good many forums I appreciate my freedom to do so. I also see others being given that freedom as a good thing. You can minus my karma as much as you like. That is your choice. You can call me out as immature. Your choice. You can try to seek to have the freedoms we all enjoy on this forum for the benefit of yourself and a man who thumbs his nose at one of the nastiest pieces in history. Your choice. You can choice to lose respect for me. Your choice. You can even seek to further justify how you could possibly be right doing so . Your choice. What you can't choose though is to stop me being me and ultimately not responding to your emotional blackmail. I don't do that. I am hoping for your sake you are just off on a tangent and that you will realise why what you have posted is against reasonableness. I like you GA but I sure as hell won't be manipulated by you.

[GalileoAce]

I never claimed to enforce or wish to enforce anything. I merely expressed my irritation at everyone's behaviour in this thread. Do not I have the right to make that choice?

[Al Swearegen]

I never claimed to enforce or wish to enforce anything. I merely expressed my irritation at everyone's behaviour in this thread. Do not I have the right to make that choice?

You sure?

It's not that I disagree with the act of making the choices, but rather the choices themselves. Of those participating (including Illusions) in the argument Parts seems to be the only one being mature about it. Sure you can choose to be immature, but, like all other choices, it will lead to consequences based on those choices. Me loosing respect for you, being one possible consequence. I don't agree with Illusions point of view, and have no need to argue it with him, but I was interested in how he came to that point of view, so I probed that, but I did so in a mature manner.

The way you respond to your enemies is just as, if not more, important than the way you respond to your allies.

[GalileoAce]

Where's the enforcement? I merely pointed out an obvious fact. To every choice there are consequences. Such as my choosing to air my annoyances has lead to this discussion. It's how the universe works.

[Al Swearegen]

Where's the enforcement? I merely pointed out an obvious fact. To every choice there are consequences. Such as my choosing to air my annoyances has lead to this discussion. It's how the universe works.

Ah yes Cause and effect. You are inferring the effect of my actions will cause your consequences (reprisals) and you are just a pebble in the stream and have no ability to interfere with what will be. Very deep but not true and the key ingredient is choice. Choice to allow your desire to engage Illusionist's hate filled issues and a choice to frame the way all debate on this subject in this debate are to be received and your choice to allow yourself to lose respect (or even consider it) to those who choose not to follow the doctrine of acceptable, mature Illusionist debating protocol (as imagined and known by you - and possibly Illusionist). CHOICE. Sorry I missed the whole universal thing as a point.

Perhaps it may be to all our benefits if you write down the rules for what is or is not to be appropriate in this forum and we can get it thrashed out with the Elders? How do you think that would go and why? Now care to think again about the why the Cause and Effect model above is flawed? Care to think why agreeing with Illusionist as to whether or not the forum ought to have to response in a way he (or you) sees fit is wrong? Care to look at why threatening with emotional blackmail in this instance is silly? Care to review your stand and entertain that for whatever reason you may be on the wrong end of things here?

[GalileoAce]

I don't for a second imagine that my respect means much of anything to anyone here. It was merely an offhand comment and not 'emotional blackmail'.

[Al Swearegen]

Uh-huh. The same as gheying three people on the same thread and calling them "Bitchy Dicks" was an offhand thing to do? C'mon mate......what is going on?

[GalileoAce]

What is going on is that you're all being bitchy dicks so I ghey'd you for it. Seems fair?

[punkdrew]

I wasn't around for WWII but both my father and grandfather served during that time (Signal Corps and US Army, respectively.). I also have friends who lost family members in the camps. So it's not something I care to put in a file and forget about. That's why Santayana's famous quote is still so bloody relevant. If you forget what happened, some psychotic motherfucker will come around and remind you. Probably with a gun of some kind.

For me, the bottom line is as phrased by Capt Picard in STAR TREK: INSURRECTION:

"How many people does it take before it becomes wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"

[Al Swearegen]

What is going on is that you're all being bitchy dicks so I ghey'd you for it. Seems fair?

Everyone else was in the wrong but you were acting in the right? Generally when I think this, I have to re-look at what stance I have taken. So is it fair? That is up for you to decide.
Illusionist will support your stance and tell you that it is very likely that millions if not billions of people holding the same opinion are likely to be wrong from his. Maybe you think similarly. Everyone else was doing the wrong this and taking the wrong stance on things but you were the beacon of hope, salvation and sanity in the debate.....or maybe you got it wrong. Again no need to ask me if it was fair because if your stance on things works for you, who am I to dissuade you. Not like my or anyone else's opinions matters.

[Al Swearegen]

Well you got your argument in semantics anyhow GA. I wonder whether you prefer this to me just mindlessly sledging Ilusionist?

[GalileoAce]

"Millions of people can't be wrong".

Oh most assuredly they can, just look at how Hitler came to power (to use that as a metaphor). I wouldn't place too much stock on the opinions of the masses, but rather your own opinions, for they are all that matter. And the thing about opinions is that one is never right, or wrong.

I pity Illusions. I don't agree with his opinions of beliefs on what occured during WW2. My own opinions on the issue are clouded, as I don't truly know what occured, but I'm leaning more toward 'accepted' fact and away from what Illusions believes. But that doesn't mean I'm going to call him names for his beliefs. That might be your way, I disagree with it, and as such I'm exercising my right to choose to how to respond to it. Just as I disagreed with Noctivagus' opinions of you on Gestalt, though there is less of a way of expressing it there as that's not that kind of forum (in the classic definition of forum). Intensity is.

Well you got your argument in semantics anyhow GA. I wonder whether you prefer this to me just mindlessly sledging Ilusionist?

To be honest... Well honestly I don't know. On the one hand you sledging Illusions was somewhat amusing, if in a (in my opinion) immature fashion. And this discussion has led me to challenge my own behaviour, which is always difficult. But on the other had it's led me to challenge my own behaviours...

[The_Chosen_One]

If Illusionist doesn't want sledging, he better stay off the cricket field.

And I2 is the cricket field of the 'net. Howzat?

BTW, my granddad survived Gallipoli and WW1, only to die at the hands of a practical joke when someone put fag-ash in his beer when he was 70. History is history, and while relevent to those studying it, it should be left as such.