Wrong Planet.

[IlluSionS667]

1. You have been provided with plenty of "reasons" on AFF. That you would refute them is neither here nor there. It is just regurgitating old arguments for the sake of regurgitating old arguments.

Actually, I encountered various unteresting rational arguments against my views on Wrong Planet for the short time I was a member there, but on AFF there were little to no rational arguments brought forward against my views. Rather, they sticked with insulting me or distorting what I was saying to make it sound as if I was a monster.

All I care for in discussing, is finding the truth, adjusting my own views to my new findings and spreading those findings among others. I've been doing that for about 8 years now and grew quite a lot philosphically speaking. The more knowledge I gain, the more the puzzle fits... the more everything in this bizarre world starts to make sense.

2. I am not offended or concerned enough to waste the brainpower. I mean I am not Jewish nor do I find your view on the death camps revolting (weird sure) not revolting. The tolerance of gays? I have a few gay friends and see no reason why they ought to be in lower social standing. Then again I don't feel slightly personally, so.... Oh and the multicultural thing, well let's say I am German heritage back in 1400 with a healthy amount of English, Irish, Scottish and Aboriginal blood. So Multiculturalism and mingling of nationalities and race work fine for me. So I should care?

I like to believe there's more to life than my own direct personal interests. The issues in question are issues that affect humanity as a species much more than you can imagine. We are currently at a phase very reminiscent of the Roman empire before its collapse and I would prefer doing something about that rather than just letting our society degenerate further and further.

3. What is the end result in thrashing it out?

The more people wake up from the lies and distortions imposed on them by the media and "education", the more likely humanity can recover after our society collapses. I don't think we can still do anything to prevent it at this point in time, but I like to believe that we can still make a difference in the aftermath. Although I realise that only a small minority will be stimulated to do his own research and discover the truth for himself after reading my words, even a single individual is worth the effort imo. Considering I've known people labeling me as their mentor or as someone with the potential of becoming a great ideological leader one day, I'd say I definitely inspired more than one person thusfar.

[Pyraxis]

We are currently at a phase very reminiscent of the Roman empire before its collapse

Agreed.

I would prefer doing something about that rather than just letting our society degenerate further and further.

Hold on, you think condemning gays and death camps is going to solve the problem? If you're worried about supremacist religions, you might want to check Christianity and Islam. In case you hadn't noticed, it's not WW2 anymore. Which religions people are killing people over have changed.

What's the causal relationship between Judaism and the today's-society/Roman-Empire similarities?

BTW, how can you believe in a meritocracy and be against capitalism?

As for all the back to nature stuff, are you unaware of the homosexual behavior of most animal species, including chimps? If you believe in taking all values from nature, perhaps you should begin eating your mates. Or killing other species without respect. Humans aren't the only ones who wipe out species, by a long shot. The process of evolution was operating long before we showed up on the planet. We're a flash in the pan. What makes you think our values and motivations are somehow separate from the process of evolution?

You're certainly full of theories, but most idiots have an opinion. "Great ideological leader" is going off the deep end.

[IlluSionS667]

Hold on, you think condemning gays and death camps is going to solve the problem?

First of all, I'm not condemning homosexuals but rather disagreeing with their lifestyle being regarded as a normal and healthy alternative to heterosexuality. One of my best friends is a very hedonistic lesbian, by the way.

Second, I'm not condeming death camps (I do oppose the concept, but that's another issue) but merely saying that the German camps during WW2 were work camps rather than death camps, including Auschwitz, Majdanek, Belzec or Chelmo.

Further, I'm not saying that awareness solves the problem. It's just the preperation towards solving the problem. Without seeing things from their proper perspective, you can't make the proper analysis and come up with the proper conclusions. You must understand both the past and the present to know how to move forwards.

If you're worried about supremacist religions, you might want to check Christianity and Islam. In case you hadn't noticed, it's not WW2 anymore. Which religions people are killing people over have changed.

Actually, zionism is pretty much a secular equivalent to judaism and one of the greatest threats in the modern world. I object far more to zionism than to Christianity and Islam, but I agree to them being dangerous frames of thought as well. In fact, most frames of thought derived from Judaism tend to be dangerous in many ways.

What's the causal relationship between Judaism and the today's-society/Roman-Empire similarities?

Read the literature of Kevin MacDonald (eg. The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements) or Israel Shahak (eg. Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years). Both authors are college professors, their works are scientific and solid and available on Amazon. I will not attempt to summarize the thousands of pages they wrote in a handful of paragraphs as that's simply impossible.

BTW, how can you believe in a meritocracy and be against capitalism?

Capitalism is a society where power is based on economical dominance. A meritocracy is a society where power is based on individual merit. Both contradict, since rich people often are not those with most individual merit.

As for all the back to nature stuff, are you unaware of the homosexual behavior of most animal species, including chimps?

I am familiar with homosexuality among aminals. They are a tiny minority among most species. Bonobo chimps are a peculiar species and would rather qualify as bisexual rather than homosexual. A peculiar fact about bonobos is also that their groups are led by females rather than males, which could explain their deviance in comparison with other species. Female-run societies tend to be differently organised from male-run societies due to the difference between males and females.

If you believe in taking all values from nature, perhaps you should begin eating your mates.

This only occurs among a few species. It is hardly general practice among animals.

Or killing other species without respect. Humans aren't the only ones who wipe out species, by a long shot.

Most animals only kill another animal for food. They don't kill if they don't have to. As a consequence, a pet dog or a cat can become very good friends with a rabbit if he's fed properally.

The process of evolution was operating long before we showed up on the planet. We're a flash in the pan. What makes you think our values and motivations are somehow separate from the process of evolution?

Man is the only species capable of ignoring his instincts and rationally choosing to do the oposite. This allows him to go against nature and arroganty follow his own path which is exactly what post-modern man is doing. Post-modern society is in many ways exactly oposite to the ways or nature.

You're certainly full of theories, but most idiots have an opinion. "Great ideological leader" is going off the deep end.

Believe me or not, but this is how people have described me in the past. I surely encountered a lot of people who hate me for what I stand for, but I also have my groupies and sympathisers.

[ozymandias]

I didn't get banned from WP but only because I didn't cheese off Alex bad enough.  I quit after seeing folk like Dunc quit in disgust and reading the posts that laid out in detail just how much of a fiefdom WP was (and is).

If I wanted to get instantly banned I'd give this username: Phartiphukborlz.

That was Douglas Adams' original name for Slartibartfast in Hitchhiker.

Agreed and plus 

[ozymandias]

Oh, and one more thing, Illusion: Have you discussed your delusions with any of the surviving Jews? I know you consider their religion dangerous, but there is a point to listening to the people that were there. I'm not going to waste my time trying to put you right, though--the world is full of nutcases and there's simply not enough time.

As I said elsewhere, you won't get banned, but you will be called on. Well, you won't be banned because of your views, unless it's illegal in the US to put forward the views re Jews in your quoted WP post; I will look into that since I am the de facto owner of this place and need to remain on good terms with our host.

Also, I suspect your karma will start dropping sharply.

FYI, it's not illegal in the US to express the views that the holocaust never happened or was something else. 

And to clarify, I disagree totally with his views on the Holocaust.  But, there's enough people out there debating that issue and I have nothing new to offer. 

[odeon]

I think Odeon is being too hard on our new friend.

For example, IllusionS667 despises Judaism, not Jews as people.

I suspect my Jew friends would see it differently. If your people have been persecuted and killed throughout history, you tend to be rather sensitive about these things.

I am against the continued occupation of Palestine and the suffering of their people caused by Israelis.

I am, too.

I'm not saying I also believe that the holocaust was not as gruesome as the history books and Hollywood tells us, as I haven't done any research to support this view. However, I don't think the invasion of Palestine would have occurred without the sympathy the Jewish people found post WW2.

Probably true.

It is important to have nutbags like IllusionS667 out there questioning the truth as it is presented to us.

Again, true. The downside is that their ignorance hurts people.

[odeon]

I left WP after getting disgruntled at the oversensitive mod faggotry going on there. I guess you were a victim of their faggotry, IlluSionS667. To be honest, nothing you said should be grounds for being banned at all, and if they didn't like it, well, a simple kind warning would have been appropriate at least.

Actually a lot of it is illegal in some countries. Notably Germany.

Well I was speaking on a perspective that's it's an message board based in America, and such remarks should be protected under the first amendment, regardless if it's non-mainstream views. Besides I find law enforced censorship of speech dangerous, as it can eventually grow to a point where anything that defies status quo, could be seen as illegal someday.

It's a message board hosted in the US. I'm reasonably certain that he isn't breaking any US law, but it's not unthinkable that he crosses the border for what our host allows, in which case I will have to stop him to keep the board online.

EDIT: Yes, I doubt what he says against US laws--thanks Ozy and others.

[odeon]

And since this website will probably pop up sooner or later in the discussion, I figured it might as well be now:

http://www.nizkor.org/ (I especially thought http://www.nizkor.org/features/revision-or-denial/ was worthy of a quick read-through.)

And here's another one that refutes his claims, one by one: http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial/. My current favourite is a little dissection of sorts of Mr Germar Rudolf.

Now, I'm sure Illusion (such an aptly chosen nick) will protest, pointing to this or that Holocaust-denier (may I suggest Mr Rudolf, or perhaps Dr Konrad?), but gaping holes have already appeared in his argument and I doubt any rational argument will reach through to him, anyway. After all, others have wasted bandwidth on him on other forums.

Or I could simply end the thread by calling him a Nazi.

[ozymandias]

I think Odeon is being too hard on our new friend.

For example, IllusionS667 despises Judaism, not Jews as people.

I suspect my Jew friends would see it differently. If your people have been persecuted and killed throughout history, you tend to be rather sensitive about these things.

I am against the continued occupation of Palestine and the suffering of their people caused by Israelis.

I am, too.

I'm not saying I also believe that the holocaust was not as gruesome as the history books and Hollywood tells us, as I haven't done any research to support this view. However, I don't think the invasion of Palestine would have occurred without the sympathy the Jewish people found post WW2.

Probably true.

It is important to have nutbags like IllusionS667 out there questioning the truth as it is presented to us.

Again, true. The downside is that their ignorance hurts people.

But, the glory of freespeech is that these ideas are out there and not hidden or squirming, worming underground like a festering cancer.

[Phlexor]

I used to go for similar conspiricy theory shit a number of years ago until I realised that it was a complete waste of time and didnt makea damn difference to the world wheather I believed it or not.

Now I have a lot more time for more interesting things, like life.

[punkdrew]

Or I could simply end the thread by calling him a Nazi.

I prefer fucktard myself. And I'd recommend texts of my own but I don't want to waste the space or energy. but how about WHILE SIX MILLION DIED by Arthur Morse? Morse was a member of Edward R Murrow's team @ CBS. He documents numerous occasions where FDR could have saved German Jews and DID NOTHING. That's right, the great FDR, savior of the nation, was a closet anti-Semite. At least Henry Ford was open about his.

[IlluSionS667]

I suspect my Jew friends would see it differently.

Just because they see it differently, that doesn't mean I meant it differently. Shouldn't the actual statement be more relevant than the perception thereof?

If your people have been persecuted and killed throughout history, you tend to be rather sensitive about these things.

f your people have been persecuted and killed throughout history, your people is probably responsible for it. Academics like Israel Shahak, Normal Finkelstein and Andrew MacDonald have left no doubt the fact that antisemitism is merely a reaction to the behavior of supremacist Jews reflected on the Jewish community as a whole.

Again, true. The downside is that their ignorance hurts people.

Not my but your views are based on ignorance.

Besides that, someone's views should not be based on whether or not someone feels offended by them but on whether or not there are any rational arguments for them. Thusfar, no one on this site has even come close to challenging my views with rational arguments. If you truely believe that my views are ignorant, I would love to engage in a rational debate with you and prove that you're the ignorant one.

It's a message board hosted in the US. I'm reasonably certain that he isn't breaking any US law, but it's not unthinkable that he crosses the border for what our host allows, in which case I will have to stop him to keep the board online.

We stand for freedom of expression, combative debate, and the generation of ideas. There are no boundaries here over what may be said, save for one rule - be prepared to back up your words.

Where did I read those words....? Oh yeah, now I remember. You put them on the homepage of this website.

I am prepared to back up anything I've said so far and anything I'll say in the future. If you dispute my views, feel free to engage in debate as I can back up every single one of them.

http://www.nizkor.org/ (I especially thought http://www.nizkor.org/features/revision-or-denial/ was worthy of a quick read-through.)

And here's another one that refutes his claims, one by one: http://www.holocaust-history.org/denial/. My current favourite is a little dissection of sorts of Mr Germar Rudolf.

Now, I'm sure Illusion (such an aptly chosen nick) will protest, pointing to this or that Holocaust-denier (may I suggest Mr Rudolf, or perhaps Dr Konrad?), but gaping holes have already appeared in his argument and I doubt any rational argument will reach through to him, anyway. After all, others have wasted bandwidth on him on other forums.

Both Nizkor and Holocaust-History are websites run by fanatics who use the most irrational arguments to ignore the scientific findings of Holocaust revisionists. The tactics of the people at Nizkor and Holocaust-History are lies, distortions and defamations. I find it peculiar that in a debate I had with one of these fellows (a qualified Holocaust historian) no single rational argument was brought forward that could debunk my views on the so-called Holocaust. In fact, his arguments were so inconsistent and illogical that he only made a fool out of himself.

Or I could simply end the thread by calling him a Nazi.

You wouldn't be the first to do so, however it wouldn't be very mature.

But, the glory of freespeech is that these ideas are out there and not hidden or squirming, worming underground like a festering cancer.

Holocaust revisionism is out there, but by defaming Holocaust revisionists and distorting their views the media succesfully achieved a situation where few people actually engage in reading Holocaust Revisionist literature to find out for themselves how strong or how weak their arguments truely are. Also, ancient alien organisations like the ADL or the Wiesenthal Center actively engage in attempts to pressure ISPs or other service providers to apply self-censorship on any site they deem as inappropriate and freedom of speech does not exist in Western Europe or Canada.

I used to go for similar conspiricy theory shit a number of years ago until I realised that it was a complete waste of time and didnt makea damn difference to the world wheather I believed it or not.

Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but why should that stop someone from finding out the truth?

I prefer fucktard myself. And I'd recommend texts of my own but I don't want to waste the space or energy. but how about WHILE SIX MILLION DIED by Arhtur Morse? Morse was a member of Edward R Murrow's team @ CBS. He documents numerous occasions where FDR could have saved German Jews and DID NOTHING. That's right, the great FDR, savior of the nation, was a closet anti-Semite. At least Henry Ford was open about his.

Actually, FDR was strongly ancient alien-influenced and anything but antisemitic. If he allowed the Germans do act as they did with regards to the Jews, that was because he knew the Germans were NOT mass-murdering Jews and because his ancient alien friends could (ab)use German antisemitism and the actual situation in the concentration camps to plea for their much desired homeland in Palestine.

What about Did Six Million Really Die? by Richard E. Harwood? Can you bring forward any arguments against it?

[Phlexor]

Hey, how do you use that ignore function again? 

[IlluSionS667]

Hey, how do you use that ignore function again? 

Please press it now, so I won't find your contentless one-liners after every post I write.

[Pyraxis]

If your people have been persecuted and killed throughout history, your people is probably responsible for it.

Not my but your views are based on ignorance.

Irony alert!  :lol:

I have better things to do at the moment than vanish up an ivory tower with you, but consider this:

Why are you so convinced mankind's problems come from thinking too much and ignoring their animal instincts, when it's rational argument that you're so proud of and that you're using to seek to convince us?

Aren't you violating your own code?