Born in the wrong time

[ALLDAYGLOWRANDY]

Parts, I think your disablity makes you feel self conscious.

All anyone can ask of you is to try your best in life, don't focus so much on what is wrong.

I think that is the orgin of this thread.

[SovaNu]

exactly.

there's a tribe in africa, or possibly in the mediterranean, where the males in the tribe reach a certain age they start behaving like women. they put on dresses. i saw it on tv but i think it was true.

[Alex179]

exactly. although it is commonly used interchangeably with sex, it isn't sex
gender is a social construct

They are very intertwined throughout history.   The gender role is a social construct that tells you what your role in society should be.   Society gives genders roles that are clearly defines, those roles are the constructs.   Beyond that grammatical gender is a language thing related to sex directly.    You don't refer to a male chimpanzee as a "she".   Since Chimps don't have clothes, music or anything else to base their roles on, they just go by function more than behaviour.  They don't deviate from their roles really.   Bonobos do have homosexual encounters, however.   Their males still act like males and such.

[Alex179]

exactly.

there's a tribe in africa, or possibly in the mediterranean, where the males in the tribe reach a certain age they start behaving like women. they put on dresses. i saw it on tv but i think it was true.

Most tribal societies just cover their genitals or are naked.   The women normally have exposed breasts because they do not wear shirts or any torso covering just like men.   The Indians or Native Americans did have tribes where women wore dresses, though I have not read anything with men wearing dresses.   Dresses aren't that common in tribal societies.

[SovaNu]

they wore dresses made for women. they also wore jewerly and make up i think. they might have been hawaiian dresses though.

[Alex179]

they wore dresses made for women. they also wore jewerly and make up i think. they might have been hawaiian dresses though.

Dresses themselves are social constructs.   Men wear kilts lol.  The whole attachment of gender/sex to clothing itself is funny.   Wear what is comfortable or what compliments you physically.  Otherwise it is pointless.   Jewelry is crap and so are ties, suits, dresses, etc.   Social constructs that say this and that are better.   You don't work any better because you are wearing a tie and suit, that is complete bullshit.

[Soph]

exactly. although it is commonly used interchangeably with sex, it isn't sex
gender is a social construct

They are very intertwined throughout history.   The gender role is a social construct that tells you what your role in society should be.   Society gives genders roles that are clearly defines, those roles are the constructs.   Beyond that grammatical gender is a language thing related to sex directly.    You don't refer to a male chimpanzee as a "she".   Since Chimps don't have clothes, music or anything else to base their roles on, they just go by function more than behaviour.  They don't deviate from their roles really.   Bonobos do have homosexual encounters, however.   Their males still act like males and such.

sexuality doesn't have anything to do with gender identity. and homosexuality occurs in plenty of other species, not just bonobos. gender roles aren't the only things that are socially constructed though. gender itself is. it's not just the "men are meant to act like this..." and "most girls are..." that are social constructs, it's gender identity itself. the fact that i'm transgendered isn't about me rejecting gender roles; it has nothing to do with how i act.

[SovaNu]

true dat.

[SovaNu]

they wore dresses made for women. they also wore jewerly and make up i think. they might have been hawaiian dresses though.

Dresses themselves are social constructs.   Men wear kilts lol.  The whole attachment of gender/sex to clothing itself is funny.   Wear what is comfortable or what compliments you physically.  Otherwise it is pointless.   Jewelry is crap and so are ties, suits, dresses, etc.   Social constructs that say this and that are better.   You don't work any better because you are wearing a tie and suit, that is complete bullshit.

nothing wrong with social constructs. there's something wrong with social constricts.

[Alex179]

exactly. although it is commonly used interchangeably with sex, it isn't sex
gender is a social construct

They are very intertwined throughout history.   The gender role is a social construct that tells you what your role in society should be.   Society gives genders roles that are clearly defines, those roles are the constructs.   Beyond that grammatical gender is a language thing related to sex directly.    You don't refer to a male chimpanzee as a "she".   Since Chimps don't have clothes, music or anything else to base their roles on, they just go by function more than behaviour.  They don't deviate from their roles really.   Bonobos do have homosexual encounters, however.   Their males still act like males and such.

sexuality doesn't have anything to do with gender identity. and homosexuality occurs in plenty of other species, not just bonobos. gender roles aren't the only things that are socially constructed though. gender itself is. it's not just the "men are meant to act like this..." and "most girls are..." that are social constructs, it's gender identity itself. the fact that i'm transgendered isn't about me rejecting gender roles; it has nothing to do with how i act.

Sexuality has to do with whether you procreate or not.   If you are doing your role sexually, then you are usually doing the same role as your naturally assigned gender.   Bonobos are the only apes that are homosexual.   We are apes, more related to Chimpanzees than any other animal.   The only women I see that look truly masculine are those that lift weights all the time and are probably on steroids.   I know guys however that have to put forth a shitload of work to look adrogynous.  

Bonobos stay within their gender roles, despite being homosexual.   That would be me saying that their sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity.  If they had male Bonbobos who act like females, then I would understand better.   The only way they act role wise is how they hunt, gather food and care for infants.

It does have to do with how you act.   Females are supposed to react certain ways to things and so are males as far as roles go.   Men are on average bigger than women for a reason (apes and humans same thing).

[Soph]

but gender itself is not how you act. gender roles are, yes. but not gender itself. a man is still a man regardless of how masculine he seems or behaves.

for example, you could have a transvestite who is physically male but rejects his gender role by wearing women's clothing etc. maybe he is gay as well and maybe very feminine. but he still identifies as male and is still a man. he rejects his gender role and doesn't 'act like a man' but he is not transgendered.

likewise, i don't identify as female, but whether people view me as feminine (physically or personality) has nothing to do with it.

[Soph]

Females are supposed to react certain ways to things and so are males as far as roles go.

exactly. that is gender roles. not gender itself

   Men are on average bigger than women for a reason (apes and humans same thing).

and that is sex. not gender

[Alex179]

The fact that mostly men listen to the type of music I listen to does not make me masculine or a man.  Neither does the way I dress.  The way I smell, look (without clothes on especially), talk, etc. are what makes me masculine.   That and the fact that I am actually a man.   What kind of job I work at and/or my interests do not define my gender.   What kind of job I do does effect my role in society though.   Gender role wise, women aren't usually Gladiators in ancient Rome for example.  That doesn't mean that they couldn't have been, just that it didn't happen. You can dress a guy up in a dress and makeup, and he will still have to change his voice and almost everything else about him to truly appear like society's construct of a female.   Clothes don't really make the man.

Women do have certain things that make them naturally more capable as mothers.   That is just the way it is, though some men try really hard.  

You think that your clothes, interests, etc.  define your gender? 

[Alex179]

Men are on average bigger than women for a reason (apes and humans same thing).

and that is sex. not gender
[/quote]Them being bigger on average is why they have their gender role.   They are related.  It is just a part of why female and male humans have evolved the way that they have in society.

[SovaNu]

voluntary gender roles are ok.

wearing a dress is usually something females do, men who wear dresses are getting in touch with their feminine side.