AspieLeft

[Calandale]

i don't understand what Bill Clintons intern has to do with any of this.

So THAT'S what you want fingers for?

[McGiver]

i don't understand what Bill Clintons intern has to do with any of this.

So THAT'S what you want fingers for?

no.

that is why i smoke cigars.

[Calandale]

But it doesn't count unless there's an even dozen.

[In The spaGhetto]

They hate the US and sympathize with the "Palestinians" when they bomb and shoot Israeli civilians. When the Israelis strike back, they're "violating" the terrorist's "human rights" etc. 

playing devil's advocate here and simplifying things enormously but:
you could say when the "Israelis" bomb and shoot palestinian civilians and the palestinians strike back they're "violating" the ancient aliens "human rights" etc.

both think they should occupy the same land, both want the other out and bomb the fuck out of each other, neither is morally superior in my opinion. one is richer than the other so uses different tactics, one was settled there more recently then got shifted out, both get pissed off when one of their family gets killed by the other side and wants to retaliate.
you think there are no palestinian (arab/muslim/whatever) civilians? It's a shit complicated situation, the problem i have with the US govt position is casting one side as the bad guys. look at it from the palestinian perspective. I don't mean wanting wiping all jews off the face of the earth - that view is exaggerated imo, but getting what was your grandfather's land taken away and being shifted into crowded camps you'd get pretty pissed off.

[Litigious]

The Israelis have one country of their own, Israel. The Arabs have 22 countries. Most of those countries want to wipe Israel of the map. There are Arab civilians, of course, but why I oppose the names "Palestine" and "Palestinians" is that Palestina was a name made up by the Romans after driving most of the Jews out into the Diaspora. It comes from the word "Philistine", known from the Bible. There is no "Palestinian people", there are Arabs living in Israel, period.

The "occupied territories" were once Jewish tribal lands, before the Arabs ever set their foot there. When the Jews regained parts of their old land 1947, the Arab neighbour countries immediately attacked, but got their arses thoroughly kicked. They did it again and got their arses kicked again. So Israel has gained that land in justified defense wars. Tough shit, the Arabs should have left Israel alone in the first place.

[Calandale]

The arabs were living there long before the resettlement though.
It's as though the Welsh were to demand France, because they
once lived there.

[In The spaGhetto]

cal - exactly. or if i discovered i had swedish blood and went over to sweden to kick a black guy out of his house to send him back to africa.

a lot of the "return to israel" was motivated by religious reasons as well - taking literally the "return to the promised land" described in the bible. There were plenty of other places they could have made a jewish state if they'd wanted one somewhere.

[Calandale]

On the other hand, the same applies to the current Palestinians. They've been kicked out for a while.
It's just a hellish situation, which should never have been created. 

[In The spaGhetto]

and even if the israelis had a legitimate claim to reclaim the land, you've still gotta expect people to be pissed off if they get shifted off land they've been on for generations.


what i don't understand is how this thing has become a right/left divide issue. i often hear some right wing american evangelicals complaining that "the jews control all our media" but then the same people will unquestionably support israel. it confuses me

[Litigious]

and even if the israelis had a legitimate claim to reclaim the land, you've still gotta expect people to be pissed off if they get shifted off land they've been on for generations.


what i don't understand is how this thing has become a right/left divide issue. i often hear some right wing american evangelicals complaining that "the jews control all our media" but then the same people will unquestionably support israel. it confuses me

It's not that strange. They want a great Israel, so all Jews can move back there.

[Calandale]

So that the apocalypse can come

[McGiver]

cal - exactly. or if i discovered i had swedish blood and went over to sweden to kick a black guy out of his house to send him back to africa.

a lot of the "return to israel" was motivated by religious reasons as well - taking literally the "return to the promised land" described in the bible. There were plenty of other places they could have made a jewish state if they'd wanted one somewhere.

like new yourk and hollywood?

[Scrapheap]

cal - exactly. or if i discovered i had swedish blood and went over to sweden to kick a black guy out of his house to send him back to africa.

a lot of the "return to israel" was motivated by religious reasons as well - taking literally the "return to the promised land" described in the bible. There were plenty of other places they could have made a jewish state if they'd wanted one somewhere.

like new yourk and hollywood?

More Jews livi in America than in Israel

[Scrapheap]

You're okay. You're a freedom loving libertarian (who knows his beer ). I seriously have as much trouble with the dogmatic, preachy, PC ridden, state-knows-best ethics from the left as I do with right wing apologists for greedy scum sucking corporations, inferfering moral guardians and 'bring back the empire and put the bloody darkies back in their place' bigots. I'm pro-freedom, pro the little guy and pro fairness, me.

Which is why we all need guns to FIGHT THE POWER !!!  

You pretty much summed it up, that's my basic political philosophy as well.

[odeon]

The Israelis have one country of their own, Israel. The Arabs have 22 countries.

So the Arabs who have lived in what is now Israel for generations and generations should just move?