Defending yourself and others from yobs

[Peter]

I hate this country; it's full of stupid, violent people who make me long for a good genocidal purge.  If that wasn't bad enough, we can't even defend ourselves or each other from them without getting arrested for it.  How would you respond if you saw some ape beating up an old woman on the bus?  Would you crack his skull open on the handrail and spend the next 5 years in prison?  Tell him to stop and risk being attacked yourself, knowing that it's highly unlikely that anyone else would come to your aid, and knowing that several people have died in recent years from intervening in similar situations?  Would you call the police on your mobile and hope the woman survives the attack?  Or would you do nothing?

Is assault lawful when protecting someone?
WHO, WHAT, WHY?
The Magazine answers...

Assault is against the law but what if it is committed to protect someone else?

Protecting the vulnerable is considered a key tenet of a civilised society, but recent events have shown that intervention in an effort to uphold community values can come at a very high price.

As well as the recent high-profile cases of men being killed after stepping in to stop troublemakers, there is also the memory of Philip Lawrence, the headmaster who was fatally stabbed in 1995 when trying to save a pupil from a gang.

The dilemma of intervention is one many of us - including broadcaster Jeremy Vine - have grappled with in our minds, if not in reality. But what protection does the law afford the person who commits violence when protecting someone else?

   
THE ANSWER
Assault is lawful if preventing a crime or protecting family, property and friends
But force must be reasonable and proportionate

In England and Wales, an assault is usually deemed unlawful unless in self-defence.

"There's the concept of self-defence in case law that extends to defending not just one's self and one's property but also one's nearest and dearest and family," says solicitor Robert Brown.

"If I was married and my wife was being attacked then it would be a form of self-defence by analogy to protect property or family. So to that extent there would be some permission."

   
WHO, WHAT, WHY?
A regular part of the BBC News Magazine, Who, What, Why? aims to answer some of the questions behind the headlines
Self-defence would extend to a student, in the case of a teacher, but not to a stranger, although it would be interesting to see how the law develops given recent events, Mr Brown adds.

But there is another way to argue that an assault committed to protect a stranger was lawful.

The Criminal Law Act is aimed at preventing a crime and permits assault if, for example, a shoplifter is being stopped from leaving a store.

"Therefore by analogy if you see someone beating up a stranger and intervene and you are accused of assault then you could use the Criminal Law Act to say 'I've a defence because I've prevented a crime,'" says Mr Brown.

"Therefore there's a rather broad defence in law to protect someone who intervenes."

The force used must be "reasonable and proportionate" and that is decided by a jury, which should take into account the difficulty of assessing what this means in the heat of the moment.

In Scotland, the self-defence law is slightly broader and covers acting on behalf of anyone else, says Alasdair Thomson of the Glasgow Law Practice.

"You can act in self-defence of another in Scots law and you can come to the assistance of a person under threat of imminent physical violence," he says.

"But the response has to be proportionate to the violence that's potentially being meted out. It's not classed as an assault because there's no intent to injure."

   Much as I would want to help out another person who was being attacked or abused, these situations can quickly escalate into violence
John, London
But the advice from police is unequivocally against intervention. A spokeswoman for the Association of Chief Police Officers says they have only one instruction - call the police.

And a Home Office statement said: "The public should not intervene in any situations of any criminal activity. They may put themselves in danger, exacerbate the situation and ultimately be acting on the wrong side of the law."

Those who have stepped in have sometimes found the authorities interpret events in an unsympathetic way.

A rail guard who intervened to protect passengers from a man who had allegedly threatened them has reportedly been sacked and charged with threatening behaviour, after appearing to head-butt the man.

Lottery

And in a separate incident, Magazine reader John, from London, says he was charged with grievous bodily harm after a teenager who had been abusing a woman in a petrol station then squared up to him and threatened to knock him out. John punched the youth and fractured his jaw.

He was charged with GBH, suspended from work, depicted as a thug by lawyers and faced the prospect of jail, but the charge was dropped when CCTV evidence clearly showed the youth, who was eventually convicted of affray, behaving threateningly.

"Much as I would want to help out another person who was being attacked or abused, these situations can quickly escalate into violence," says John.

"And even if you don't get hurt as a result, the police are going to get involved, as are lawyers who are smart enough to make the whole thing a lottery."

Rail guard bravely defends commuters from a violent yob - and gets sacked for it
Last updated at 11:19am on 21st August 2007

Comments Comments (3)

Sacked: Rail guard Paul Yarwood has been forced to put his house up for sale after being sacked for tackling a violent fare dodger
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A rail guard has been fired for defending commuters from a violent fare dodger.

Paul Yarwood, 44, came to the rescue after a drunken passenger abused travellers and threatened staff with a broom at Colchester station.

But bosses at rail company One Railway sacked him for gross misconduct, claiming CCTV showed him headbutting the man.

His dismissal comes despite an admission by the fare dodger that he was entirely to blame.

The father-of-three, who has not worked since the incident, will appear before a court on Thursday accused of threatening behaviour.

Today his wife, Maria, 41, said the family have been forced to put their house up for sale after being unable to pay the mortgage.

She told the Daily Mirror: "Our lives have been ruined by this and it has been hanging over our heads for months. Paul was just doing his job and helping to protect his passengers.

"It's a farce. He's shattered by this. He didn't attack this man, even though he could have claimed it was self-defence.

"The company say he should have kept his cool, but he did. It's not they who have to deal face-to-face with situations like this and put up with what staff have to."

Mrs Yarwood said her husband - a former soldier who had notched up seven years of exemplary service with One Railway - had refused to stand by when a drunken passenger threatened members of the public at the Essex station.

The man had jumped over a ticket barrier, abused station staff and illegally lit up a cigarette on a waiting train.

When a supervisor tried to persuade him to leave, he grabbed him, threatened to hit another member of staff with a broom and told a fellow traveller he would punch him. After escorting passengers to safety, Mr Yarwood confronted the man, who lunged at him and knocked him to the ground.

Onlookers described how his attacker "loomed" over Mr Yarwood as he tried to get up and how their heads had briefly touched.

One Railway sacked Mr Yarwood after claiming that six seconds of CCTV showed him headbutting the man.

Police later questioned and charged Mr Yarwood while the man was fined £80 for smoking.

Mrs Yarwood said: "They're basing their case on six seconds of CCTV while there are plenty of witnesses to tell them what did happen."

The RMT union has held two local strikes over the incident, with the support of members of the public.

Derek Monnery, head of the Essex Rail Users' Federation passenger group, said: "Managers have to ask why this strike was so strongly backed. They should have taken into account the support given to Mr Yarwood by co-workers when they took the decision to sack him."

According to a union insider, the fare dodger returned to the station shortly after the incident and admitted he was at fault.

The source said: "He gave a taped interview to the station manager in which he admitted being abusive and threatening. He made it clear he felt he was to blame for the entire incident and did not feel any action should be taken against the guard."

Bosses at One Railway have defended the sacking, claiming they have "comprehensively" addressed the RMT union's concerns

[McGiver]

catchy title...is interested.

long assed post.....can't be assed.

[Christopher McCandless]

This should lighten you up a little. 

[McGiver]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

[Christopher McCandless]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

Ive got another video that someone did, its a mock chav hunt:
http://www.bebo.com/FlashBox.jsp?FlashViewType=Personal&FlashBoxId=568349423

[The_P]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

Ive got another video that someone did, its a mock chav hunt:
http://www.bebo.com/FlashBox.jsp?FlashViewType=Personal&FlashBoxId=568349423

That video was reported on the Daily Star last week.
Wouldn't know sense of humour if it bit them in the... ARGGG! - Trode

[Christopher McCandless]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

Ive got another video that someone did, its a mock chav hunt:
http://www.bebo.com/FlashBox.jsp?FlashViewType=Personal&FlashBoxId=568349423

That video was reported on the Daily Star last week.
Wouldn't know sense of humour if it bit them in the... ARGGG! - Trode

My brother "reads" the Star I believe. The video was supposed to be banned or something.

[The_P]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

Ive got another video that someone did, its a mock chav hunt:
http://www.bebo.com/FlashBox.jsp?FlashViewType=Personal&FlashBoxId=568349423

That video was reported on the Daily Star last week.
Wouldn't know sense of humour if it bit them in the... ARGGG! - Trode

My brother "reads" the Star I believe. The video was supposed to be banned or something.

Do you know who Trode is? Dragon Quest much?

[Christopher McCandless]

he got poned!

the happy slapper looked just like eamonn.

Ive got another video that someone did, its a mock chav hunt:
http://www.bebo.com/FlashBox.jsp?FlashViewType=Personal&FlashBoxId=568349423

That video was reported on the Daily Star last week.
Wouldn't know sense of humour if it bit them in the... ARGGG! - Trode

My brother "reads" the Star I believe. The video was supposed to be banned or something.

Do you know who Trode is? Dragon Quest much?

No idea at all, i didnt watch it. I thought it was a snipe at the real cals Iltrode thing.

[The_P]

It's a video game, actually.

[Christopher McCandless]

It's a video game, actually.

I lose track, I dont play enough of a selection.

[Alex179]

You can respond with equal force here.   Completely fine to defend yourself as well.   If there is an immediate threat of death you can even kill someone in self defense.   If I saw someone beating an old lady I would intervene.    I have done it before in the past with people fighting.   Gets me a bloody nose at the worst.   That is no big deal.

[Parts]

You can respond with equal force here.   Completely fine to defend yourself as well.   If there is an immediate threat of death you can even kill someone in self defense.   If I saw someone beating an old lady I would intervene.    I have done it before in the past with people fighting.   Gets me a bloody nose at the worst.   That is no big deal.

I'm pretty sure it's the same here.  If they are in your house you can shoot them but not if they are just on your property,   better if you drag them into you house before calling them and make sure they are dead.  On the street only supposed to use enough force to get away. In either case get ready for a law suit even though they started it which won't get you jail time but will ruin you financially.

[renaeden]

If I saw someone beating an old lady I would intervene.

I would do the same. Seeing that sort of thing would make me so angry.

[McGiver]

do brits rol their R-rrr's/

as in the word: rrrrrunner