a candid discussion on suicide

[renaeden]

I also believe human beings should have a right to euthanasia. We'll happily put down a pet who is suffering, but not humans? Wouldn't it be more humane to let a cancer patient who is in excruciating pain and agony die peacefully?

I completely agree with this. My Nanna is dying from Alzheimer's Disease. She is not even my Nanna anymore, just a body. I believe it is cruel to keep her alive. Cruel for her and cruel for my family who have to see someone who used to have a strong personality just fade away. My mum said if Alzheimer's happened to her, she would end her life herself. I support her in this.

I have attempted suicide. Later I had ECT and I hoped that it would end it all for me. It was thought I was having it to get better but that was not what I was hoping at the time. Ironic that it helped me a little and I felt better. However, its effects are only temporary and I have experienced deep depression since then. It seems that I will always have some low grade depression (dysthymia). It is something I just have to live with.

One of my friends commited suicide when I was 17. He jumped in front of a fast moving train. I had an argument with him just a few hours before he did it and that was the last time I saw him alive. I am sorry about that. I also feel awful for the train driver.

I have good memories of my friend. I can also imagine his voice easily. I treasure that.

[Leto729]

I have had two suicides in My family a uncle and cousin. Even I have come close to doing Myself in too. Depression can be very hard to live with some days are good and some are bad and even some are ugly. My uncle and cousin where even under a doctor care. I have lived with suicidal thoughts for 20 plus years most of them without a doctor. I have always figured out something to keep Me Living in the end. Nothing is ever easily as living or dieing in the end. That is the honest truth as I see it.

[Nomaken]

I find it arrogant and presumptious to say that a person is selfish for wanting to end their pain. Yes I have dealt with suicidal people close to me, and I don't buy the argument "the pain of watching somebody close to you die is far worse than the pain the suicidal person is feeling". Unless you've just had someone you love commit suicide and are considering killing yourself too because you can't stand to live without them, who are you to call it selfish? (and heck, what's wrong with selfish anyway?)

Besides, I believe strongly that no degree of obligation to others trumps one's right to control whether one lives or dies.

Do you mean me?  I meant that it is selfish of the person asking a suicidal not to kill themselves.  Because the one asking is not bearing the burden of the risk.

[Peter]

I like how someone in the video says "Call the doctor!", when the guy's brain is streaming out through his nose.

[El]

I have been severely depressed and suicidal.  I don't think suicide in the case of depression is so much an act of pure selfishness and cowardice as one of lack of foresight.  When you're experiencing a severe mental illness/emotional incapacitation, your ability to tell yourself "I will get though this"- and believe it- is shot to shit.  I woudln't call it as morally reprehensible as some people seem to find it; more pitiable because when someone who is severely depressed kills themselves they may well lack the capacity to fully know just how illogical and how (to others) damaging what they are doing is.  It's perhaps akin to having taken some extremely strong psychoactive drug that fucks up your thnking and emotions.

[maldoror]

The only person in my life to commit suicide that I can remember was a (not particularly close) friend who hung herself last year. I don't think that under any circumstances a person's decision to commit suicide should be validated, but once the decision is made, it's pretty ridiculous to dwell on the aspects that would be considered selfish, or to call that person a quitter or say that the world's better off without him/her, etc. To call suicide a selfish act is a cop-out because it undercuts the real issue that causes suicide; when people spend the energy that they use to categorize, mock, or avoid a suicidal person (going off what I noticed from the case I already mentioned) on first trying to offer company or support... It's the same thing as discouraging suicide on that basis that you "might survive" and be even more fucked up, why would you want to cut off that route with a negative statement?

[Pyraxis]

Do you mean me?  I meant that it is selfish of the person asking a suicidal not to kill themselves.  Because the one asking is not bearing the burden of the risk.

No, I actually agreed with most of your post. I hadn't read it when I wrote mine, so sorry if it was unclear who I was responding to.

[richard]

that video would have ruled if it was more clearer

[Calandale]

Do you mean me?  I meant that it is selfish of the person asking a suicidal not to kill themselves.  Because the one asking is not bearing the burden of the risk.

Selfish or not, if I love someone,
I will ask, and maybe do whatever
I can, to keep them alive.

Though, they might be able
to call on my love to help them
die.

[Nomaken]

I can understand people around the suicidal being selfish and asking them to live despite their pain.  And I dont object to them thrusting their selfishness onto that person(to a point), as it is part of the risk analysis of the suicidal.  I object when they are using their wishes to guilt a person who would really be better off dead into living.  But what I really object to is the attack on the person after they are dead.  After a person kills themself people around them twist and pervert the memory of that person into a weak, cowardly, confused idiot.  Rather than appreciate the pains that that person must have been subject to to get them to kill themselves, they make out the suicide to be a pathetic loser.  Seeing them defame that person over that makes me want to blow MY brains out.

[Alex179]

I think the world would be a better place if there were a whole lot less people living in it.   If suicide gets that done, then I am fine with people commiting suicide I guess. 

I attempted suicide when I was 19 and it got me diagnosed with bipolar disorder.   I get depressed quite easily and I really am not thinking about how my actions effect the lives of others when I am really depressed.   I am focusing solely on how I feel and I am selfish in that regard.    Other times with suicide I would rather take a whole bunch of people with me before I die.   That is me basically being misanthropic, I hate almost everyone whenever I am really depressed (including myself).    After I calm down a little I think about how those actions would negatively effect my family and friends.   That is what has stopped me from attempting suicide more than just that one time.   When I stop caring about how my actions effect my family and friends, then I am in trouble.

[Pyraxis]

But what I really object to is the attack on the person after they are dead.  After a person kills themself people around them twist and pervert the memory of that person into a weak, cowardly, confused idiot.

What I object to is the degree to which people's discomfort with the idea of suicide increases the pain and isolation that suicidal people feel. I know to a degree that it's inevitable, because any issue with a lot of emotion attached is going to have its share of people with fanatic/extreme views. But despite being capitalistic under most circumstances, I take a communistic approach to extreme pain - as in, sharing it between people is better than having it all on a single person. So if it causes people mild pain to put aside their emotions in order to approach a suicidal person candidly and just listen to them (instead of overwhelming them with "suicide is wrong", "life is good", "you have everything to live for", which is what tends to happen when a healthy person talks to a suicidal person), then putting aside discomfort with the issue is the ethical thing to do.

[Callaway]

I can understand people around the suicidal being selfish and asking them to live despite their pain.  And I dont object to them thrusting their selfishness onto that person(to a point), as it is part of the risk analysis of the suicidal.  I object when they are using their wishes to guilt a person who would really be better off dead into living.  But what I really object to is the attack on the person after they are dead.  After a person kills themself people around them twist and pervert the memory of that person into a weak, cowardly, confused idiot.  Rather than appreciate the pains that that person must have been subject to to get them to kill themselves, they make out the suicide to be a pathetic loser.  Seeing them defame that person over that makes me want to blow MY brains out.

How old were you when your mother died, Nomaken?

[Calandale]

But what I really object to is the attack on the person after they are dead.  After a person kills themself people around them twist and pervert the memory of that person into a weak, cowardly, confused idiot.

What I object to is the degree to which people's discomfort with the idea of suicide increases the pain and isolation that suicidal people feel. I know to a degree that it's inevitable, because any issue with a lot of emotion attached is going to have its share of people with fanatic/extreme views. But despite being capitalistic under most circumstances, I take a communistic approach to extreme pain - as in, sharing it between people is better than having it all on a single person. So if it causes people mild pain to put aside their emotions in order to approach a suicidal person candidly and just listen to them (instead of overwhelming them with "suicide is wrong", "life is good", "you have everything to live for", which is what tends to happen when a healthy person talks to a suicidal person), then putting aside discomfort with the issue is the ethical thing to do.

Yes. That's all that my wife's friends would give her.
At least I was honest with her, and explained my
selfish reasons why I wanted her to live.

Gods, I love her.

[Pyraxis]

At least I was honest with her, and explained my
selfish reasons why I wanted her to live.

Did she then say something like "you can't possibly understand or you wouldn't ask that from me"?