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Author Topic: Truth=relative?  (Read 3529 times)

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Offline McGiver

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2007, 05:57:53 AM »
Very much so..
in the end!

Boooo!! Groan!!
i figure that if i just go one on one with you then you will always be within my reach....postwise.
Misunderstood.

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2007, 01:38:20 PM »
Very much so..
in the end!

Boooo!! Groan!!
i figure that if i just go one on one with you then you will always be within my reach....postwise.

You out-post me 3:1 though.  :grrr:

Offline Calandale

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2007, 02:23:44 PM »
It's the lunch breaks.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2007, 04:30:02 PM »
Very much so..
in the end!

Boooo!! Groan!!
i figure that if i just go one on one with you then you will always be within my reach....postwise.

You out-post me 3:1 though.  :grrr:
i am just not feeling it ATM.
Misunderstood.

Offline El

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2007, 07:37:22 AM »
Imagine that there is some objective reality (for this is, I believe where
most people stand).

What effect does it have on you? Doesn't it only somehow impact
your own perceptions? So, those perceptions are, to the observer,
the only actuality. Anything else is merely a model for explanation.

Now, if you can impose your will on these perceptions, essentially you
are changing the very nature of truth.


No, you aren't changing the objective reality, you are changing the subjective reality.  Granted, you may wind up acting/behaving in different ways, wihch change the objective reality, but outside of that, you're only lying to yourself or changing your own perception of truth, and not the truth itself.  I still either don't follow your argument or just disagree with it.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Calandale

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2007, 01:53:47 PM »
The real point is that we have NO absolute view
of any proposed objective reality. All that is
meant by it is some model based on our
perceptions. It would be insane, if our
perceptions disagreed (even through
our own choice) not to change the
model, in accordance. This is the
type of thinking that fundies tend
towards - holding onto strict
creationism, when the evidence
is wholly against them.

Offline paradox

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2007, 03:37:48 PM »
The real point is that we have NO absolute view
of any proposed objective reality. All that is
meant by it is some model based on our
perceptions. It would be insane, if our
perceptions disagreed (even through
our own choice) not to change the
model, in accordance. This is the
type of thinking that fundies tend
towards - holding onto strict
creationism, when the evidence
is wholly against them.

Not that this adds all that much depth to the discussion.
But is not the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over expecting different results?
I have never understood why it should be necessity to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or indeed why it should be necessity to prove it at all - Avon

Offline El

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2007, 03:57:16 PM »
paradox- 28 days ruined the term "insanity" for the public.  :/
Main Entry: in·san·i·ty
Pronunciation: in-'sa-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
2 : such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility
3 a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable

The real point is that we have NO absolute view
of any proposed objective reality. All that is
meant by it is some model based on our
perceptions. It would be insane, if our
perceptions disagreed (even through
our own choice) not to change the
model, in accordance. This is the
type of thinking that fundies tend
towards - holding onto strict
creationism, when the evidence
is wholly against them.

I'd agree if our perceptions were known to be both reliable and valid.  We do indeed have models based on our perceptions, but the widely-accepted models aren't based on the perceptions of just one person.  For example, one scizophrenic is in a room with 99 "normals."  Should we base our reality on the voices he hears, or on the silence everyone else hears.  The models of perception we generally have now do not change according to who views them; a basic example here is the fact that although we cannot be certain everyone "has the same yellow," we can still call a banana objectively yellow.  Even if there is a colorblind person who cannot see the yellow, so long as most of us see what we call yellow, we call the banana objectively yellow.  There are also things which lie outside of our senses but which we can still comprehend and think about, and which tend to be the same no matter what; for example, mathematics is basically independent of tangible experience.

Having said all that, perhaps you're working with a broader definition of "perception" than I am.

Might I add, speaking of the "fundies" is obviously an attempt to get a certain amoutn of emotional appeal to your side of the argument.  However, both you and I are arguing for things which cannot be proven.  You cannot prove that reality can be altered by altering perception, unless you redefine reality.  I find nothing in the definion of "real" here: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/real that matches your definition; in fact, one defintion seems opposite:  3b c : having objective independent existence   (Also, reality is definied as the quality of being real, or " a real event, entity, or state of affairs <his dream became a reality> (2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality> b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily")
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline paradox

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2007, 04:09:16 PM »
paradox- 28 days ruined the term "insanity" for the public.  :/
Main Entry: in·san·i·ty
Pronunciation: in-'sa-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
2 : such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility
3 a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable
28 days ruined what *confused look*it was a movie right?

And three b this is just a broader way of clarifying what I said.
And it was a joke, I do know the dictionary definition


The way understand the world, is you could not believe in subjective reality unless you also believed that everything, person, plant, animal was interconnected in such a way, that they as a whole could perceive reality, and therefore from some of every object of reality a subjective reality could be determined.  There is no reality without something to observe it, therefore reality is only subjective, no matter how much you hallucinate.
I have never understood why it should be necessity to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or indeed why it should be necessity to prove it at all - Avon

Offline El

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2007, 04:18:55 PM »
Your last sentence isn't a supporting argument; it's a tautology.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline paradox

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2007, 04:25:08 PM »
Okay a tautology is logically redundant,.we are dealing with something that we do not have all the fax, logic is based on information.  We are dealing with guesses, and personal beliefs. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 04:49:24 PM by paradox »
I have never understood why it should be necessity to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or indeed why it should be necessity to prove it at all - Avon

Offline El

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2007, 05:17:45 PM »
That doesn't change the fact that your last sentence of your second-to-last post was a tautology.  We do not have utterly conclusive facts, however, if all you can contribute are guessed based on no information or theories or metaphors or anything that you can back up other than in tautologies, you arent' contributing to anything but your own post count.

Also, there is actually a form of logic which isn't based on information per se but simply on logical priciples which exist outside of experience; which is similar to math in that respect.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2007, 06:07:01 PM »
insanity usually does happen every 28 days.
Misunderstood.

Offline El

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2007, 06:07:54 PM »
insanity usually does happen every 28 days.

:P  It wasn't a movie about drug addiction, McSmartass.  It was a movie about drug addiction, and a four-week rehab clinic.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline McGiver

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Re: Truth=relative?
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2007, 06:09:10 PM »
insanity usually does happen every 28 days.

:P  It wasn't a movie about drug addiction, McSmartass.  It was a movie about drug addiction, and a four-week rehab clinic.
find me a fitting avie and i will change my name to McSmartass.
Misunderstood.