Unemployed bums

[McGiver]

Do you have ANY example where the poor made such a change?

Or wasn't it always the privileged, perhaps under the guise of
helping the poor, seizing power their own way?

you want me to provide an example from history for the workers paradise that i am suggesting?
seems to me that you are grasping here.


even the rich will do what they have to do to hold onto their power.  even if that means giving up a portion of it to those that actually earn it.

Not grasping at all. What I'm saying is that what you are advocating
appears to be against what human nature allows. Those in power will
indeed bribe the poor - as they always have - with bread and circuses.
And the poor will accept it - as they always have.

but what is the bribe today?
less than it was just one year ago, and even less than what it was five years ago.  still less than ten yers ago.
when will it end?

it will finally end when the working class takes matters into their own hands....collectively.
i see no other way.


and yes, the rich will then have to compromise or give up their own standard of living completely.

[McGiver]

Do you have ANY example where the poor made such a change?

Or wasn't it always the privileged, perhaps under the guise of
helping the poor, seizing power their own way?

you want me to provide an example from history for the workers paradise that i am suggesting?
seems to me that you are grasping here.


even the rich will do what they have to do to hold onto their power.  even if that means giving up a portion of it to those that actually earn it.

Not grasping at all. What I'm saying is that what you are advocating
appears to be against what human nature allows. Those in power will
indeed bribe the poor - as they always have - with bread and circuses.
And the poor will accept it - as they always have.

Totally agree. Alas.

it is far easier to agree and do nothing but live on bread crimbs today and tomorrow and everyday thereafter, rather than to sacrifice to day so that you may eat a feast tomorrow.
apathy is laziness in this case.

[Calandale]

but what is the bribe today?
less than it was just one year ago, and even less than what it was five years ago.  still less than ten yers ago.
when will it end?

it will finally end when the working class takes matters into their own hands....collectively.
i see no other way.


and yes, the rich will then have to compromise or give up their own standard of living completely.

A hell of a lot more than it was in Ancient Egypt. Or in Russia before the revolution.
Or in Victorian England. With both males and females in the workforce, it's never
going to be the 1950's again. Sure, there'll be a compromise, once it gets bad
enough - but like the New Deal, it ain't gonna be what you're dreaming.

[Calandale]

it is far easier to agree and do nothing but live on bread crimbs today and tomorrow and everyday thereafter, rather than to sacrifice to day so that you may eat a feast tomorrow.
apathy is laziness in this case.

And the vast majority think so, as well. As they always have.
I'm on your side, about the type of Utopian ideal that you
have - it's not something that will come about peaceably though,
and the common man is too busy getting his daily bread to
begin a revolt.

[McGiver]

but what is the bribe today?
less than it was just one year ago, and even less than what it was five years ago.  still less than ten yers ago.
when will it end?

it will finally end when the working class takes matters into their own hands....collectively.
i see no other way.


and yes, the rich will then have to compromise or give up their own standard of living completely.

A hell of a lot more than it was in Ancient Egypt. Or in Russia before the revolution.
Or in Victorian England. With both males and females in the workforce, it's never
going to be the 1950's again. Sure, there'll be a compromise, once it gets bad
enough - but like the New Deal, it ain't gonna be what you're dreaming.

again with the history lesson?

[McGiver]

it is far easier to agree and do nothing but live on bread crimbs today and tomorrow and everyday thereafter, rather than to sacrifice to day so that you may eat a feast tomorrow.
apathy is laziness in this case.

And the vast majority think so, as well. As they always have.
I'm on your side, about the type of Utopian ideal that you
have - it's not something that will come about peaceably though,
and the common man is too busy getting his daily bread to
begin a revolt.

this of course, is what i alluded to as the problem.

that is why i suggested talking to your neighbors, your co-workers and the guy pumping his gas next to you.

why did i use the gas guy as the only example as the total stranger?

[Calandale]

Primarily because these aren't the people able to enforce such
a change. It's been tried. It MIGHT work, if some piece of the
status quo could subvert such a movement and use it for it's
own ends. Hey, that's what we got in Russia.

I would suggest, if you are really serious about getting something
like this moving, embedding it into religion.

[McGiver]

Primarily because these aren't the people able to enforce such
a change. It's been tried. It MIGHT work, if some piece of the
status quo could subvert such a movement and use it for it's
own ends. Hey, that's what we got in Russia.

I would suggest, if you are really serious about getting something
like this moving, embedding it into religion.

i am a member of the ILWU.  the strongest union in the world, arguably.


if i am serious, then i need to work hard in my own union to become a voice as part of a collection of voices.
and we can provide the example to the rest of the working world....a working model.

[Calandale]

At least, I finally understand why you are against entitlements.
Because they are the means by which the crumbs are delivered
to those for whom there is NO useful work providing a living wage.

But, it's really not going to be easy to convince those who depend
upon them for a little bit of extra security to give them up, just so
that life can get bad enough that they are starving and willing to
change things. You'd be best off supporting big business all the
way.

Time for another 'history lesson': this is pretty much what the
Royalists pulled in the French Revolution - through themselves
into league with the Girondin, in order to force France into
a war that they were expected to lose. Didn't work out too
well, with nearly all of the Royalists dancing on air (a few made
it long enough to get Guillotined).

[duncvis]

 

I won't be hanging around this thread, my blood pressure won't take it.

In brief - McJagger, I wonder if your feelings regarding welfare would differ if you lived in a country where well paid manual work was largely extinct and the unions were dead or disarmed; where casualisation and deskilling of the workforce has led to most remaining working class jobs and also a lot of routine 'white collar' jobs being temporary, insecure or outsourced, on short term contracts, with piss poor conditions and rates of pay, few prospects, and changing work hours when it suits the company; and that you become unfit for work just long enough for your mortgage protection insurance payments to stop and the unpaid bills to start piling up. How are you going to manage then?

Also, whether you like it or not, a lot of the new service sector jobs like 'greeters' are simply not practical for a lot of people with ASDs to do. You are very fortunate to have so few issues regarding sensory problems and social difficulties, rather like my dad. Not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to function so well in an employment setting, and if anyone resents me being on disability which I try to get back on my feet and back into some form of sustainable employment, they can kiss my arse. 

[McGiver]

But, it's really not going to be easy to convince those who depend
upon them for a little bit of extra security to give them up, just so
that life can get bad enough that they are starving and willing to
change things. You'd be best off supporting big business all the
way.

the security is exactly what George Bush sold in his last election win. 
fear is a great motivator, and i find it distastful how many cowards there are.

[McGiver]

I won't be hanging around this thread, my blood pressure won't take it.

In brief - McJagger, I wonder if your feelings regarding welfare would differ if you lived in a country where well paid manual work was largely extinct and the unions were dead or disarmed; where casualisation and deskilling of the workforce has led to most remaining working class jobs and also a lot of routine 'white collar' jobs being temporary, insecure or outsourced, on short term contracts, with piss poor conditions and rates of pay, few prospects, and changing work hours when it suits the company; and that you become unfit for work just long enough for your mortgage protection insurance payments to stop and the unpaid bills to start piling up. How are you going to manage then?

Also, whether you like it or not, a lot of the new service sector jobs like 'greeters' are simply not practical for a lot of people with ASDs to do. You are very fortunate to have so few issues regarding sensory problems and social difficulties, rather like my dad. Not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to function so well in an employment setting, and if anyone resents me being on disability which I try to get back on my feet and back into some form of sustainable employment, they can kiss my arse. 

nice.

i rather had you in mind in several of my posts that i directed at calandale.

exactly what you discribed is the reason for revolt.

but every examply you gave was on an individual level.  i have been making my arguments based on motivating the tribe, and solving these problems collectively.

[Calandale]

But, it's really not going to be easy to convince those who depend
upon them for a little bit of extra security to give them up, just so
that life can get bad enough that they are starving and willing to
change things. You'd be best off supporting big business all the
way.

the security is exactly what George Bush sold in his last election win. 
fear is a great motivator, and i find it distastful how many cowards there are.

'tis human nature. Only religious fanatics are brave.

[McGiver]

Also, whether you like it or not, a lot of the new service sector jobs like 'greeters' are simply not practical for a lot of people with ASDs to do.

the greater was a mere example.

what about research.  i can see that as a lonely job which an ASD challenged person can obsess over.
again, there are a shitload of jobs.  i am sorry that you took this so personally,  but maybe rightly so.

[McGiver]

But, it's really not going to be easy to convince those who depend
upon them for a little bit of extra security to give them up, just so
that life can get bad enough that they are starving and willing to
change things. You'd be best off supporting big business all the
way.

the security is exactly what George Bush sold in his last election win. 
fear is a great motivator, and i find it distastful how many cowards there are.

'tis human nature. Only religious fanatics are brave.

dianetics?