Another US shooting..

[FourAceDeal]

Al.  You change the subject again.  The thread title - and the discussion- is about gun violence, not suicide.

Have you now ceded the whole gun violence argument and you want to move on to an entirely different subject?

Typical Al.  Misquote. Re-frame.  Change the subject.

[odeon]

Did he ever get to the bottom of his bombs and guns thing? I can't be arsed to read his junk.

[FourAceDeal]

Did he ever get to the bottom of his bombs and guns thing? I can't be arsed to read his junk.

To be honest I wish I hadn't started reading his crap.  All it's done is reinforce what I already knew about him.

[Al Swearegen]

Al.  You change the subject again.  The thread title - and the discussion- is about gun violence, not suicide.

Have you now ceded the whole gun violence argument and you want to move on to an entirely different subject?

Typical Al.  Misquote. Re-frame.  Change the subject.

Mate, you won't even allow me to agree with you. Jesus! Most of gun death comes from suicides from well-adjusted people before they violently spray their heads everywhere and leave it for others to deal with the consequences of the violent action. The next group of people is homicides where there is deliberate intent to kill and we HAVE to say again that most people who deliberately and violently kill another person with a gun in America are perfectly rational and reasonable people with a very good mental health standing.

I am all with you mate. It was a good argument and how could I not agree and cede the point. It was what you wanted right? You are happy? Yes?

[Parts]

Al.  You change the subject again.  The thread title - and the discussion- is about gun violence, not suicide.

Have you now ceded the whole gun violence argument and you want to move on to an entirely different subject?

Typical Al.  Misquote. Re-frame.  Change the subject.

Mate, you won't even allow me to agree with you. Jesus! Most of gun death comes from suicides from well-adjusted people before they violently spray their heads everywhere and leave it for others to deal with the consequences of the violent action. The next group of people is homicides where there is deliberate intent to kill and we HAVE to say again that most people who deliberately and violently kill another person with a gun in America are perfectly rational and reasonable people with a very good mental health standing.

I am all with you mate. It was a good argument and how could I not agree and cede the point. It was what you wanted right? You are happy? Yes?

Two thirds are suicides Link

[Yuri Bezmenov]

It was actually saying that acknowledging that bad things will happen in society. Murders, rapes, assaults, fraud, theft...and bad people will do these things and will impunity and without respect for ANY restriction.

It's not what you started out with but sure, let's dismantle this one instead:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/14/people-are-getting-shot-by-toddlers-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/?utm_term=.30def2356189

Bad people? Toddlers?

Firearms accidents are at historical lows in the US despite a steady increase in the number of guns.

What's your next lame argument??

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Here's a different way of looking at the problem:

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.

Do read the rest of that page.

They are using the dishonest tactic of "gun deaths", 2/3rds of which are suicides.

There's roughly 10,000 murders per year in the US, about 80% of which are gang related.

When you eliminate those, the US homicide rate looks pretty close to that of Europe.

You might also want to read pages such as this one, on gun use for self-defence.

Clearly biased source.

You know, that whole "you have to get your lab settings right" thing??   

[Yuri Bezmenov]

That's a lot of words. I'm sure it was interesting.

I was simply referencing the killer toddler issue.

There is no "killer toddler issue", accidental firearm deaths and injuries are at all time historical lows.

You're just reading outrage clickbait, garbage journalism.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Chicago brought in tough controls.  But the Republican states around it didn't.  So people get guns from the nearby uncontrolled states and they end up in Chicago.

See?  That's how logic works. Cause and effect.

You've actually stumbled upon a good argument without realizing it.

Let's take your logic to the next level.

Let's say the US passes strict gun control nationwide.

We have a border to the south that you Limeys don't have where we couldn't stop 12 million+ Mexicans from coming into our country. That's not to mention the millions of tons of illegal drugs that come across our southern border too. While were at it, we have millions of tons of drugs coming into the US from China. Yeah, we can't stop that either.

So how do you propose to stop guns from entering the US illegally, I'm gladly waiting for your answer.   

[Yuri Bezmenov]

I'd give up on this if I were you. You're taking an unpopular position on this issue and predictablty getting hammerered.

Does being unpopular cause it to be factually wrong??

[Parts]

Chicago brought in tough controls.  But the Republican states around it didn't.  So people get guns from the nearby uncontrolled states and they end up in Chicago.

See?  That's how logic works. Cause and effect.

You've actually stumbled upon a good argument without realizing it.

Let's take your logic to the next level.

Let's say the US passes strict gun control nationwide.

We have a border to the south that you Limeys don't have where we couldn't stop 12 million+ Mexicans from coming into our country. That's not to mention the millions of tons of illegal drugs that come across our southern border too. While were at it, we have millions of tons of drugs coming into the US from China. Yeah, we can't stop that either.

So how do you propose to stop guns from entering the US illegally, I'm gladly waiting for your answer.   

Or control the ones that are already here for that matter because not everybody will just turn the ones in if they were made illegal. 

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Or control the ones that are already here for that matter because not everybody will just turn the ones in if they were made illegal.

Not sure exactly what you mean. 

[Jack]

Or control the ones that are already here for that matter because not everybody will just turn the ones in if they were made illegal.

Not sure exactly what you mean. 

You asked the question of how to control incoming guns, and Parts seems to be asking how to control the ones that are already here.

[Jack]

There's roughly 10,000 murders per year in the US, about 80% of which are gang related.

When you eliminate those, the US homicide rate looks pretty close to that of Europe.

Thinking murder is still a valid point to be made of American culture though. About 70% of US homicides are gun related, so even if all gun homicides were to all disappear, it's true the US homicide rate would be similar to a couple of European countries, but still about .5-2 times higher than the majority of them.

[odeon]

Here's a different way of looking at the problem:

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.

Do read the rest of that page.

They are using the dishonest tactic of "gun deaths", 2/3rds of which are suicides.

There's roughly 10,000 murders per year in the US, about 80% of which are gang related.

When you eliminate those, the US homicide rate looks pretty close to that of Europe.

You might also want to read pages such as this one, on gun use for self-defence.

Clearly biased source.

You know, that whole "you have to get your lab settings right" thing??   

Yes, I know, but do you?

So, do we have a gang problem or a gun problem? Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

Links on that page.

And you are wrong, yet again. It's practically a given when you try to argue rather than name-drop.