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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 2536 times)

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Teejay

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Abortion
« on: April 09, 2007, 07:45:42 AM »
At the risk of being hypocritical, I am against abortion, maybe expect in cases when the mother's life is at risk. Quite odd since I am all for capital punishment for murderers.

Scrapheap

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 07:57:51 AM »
Read the book Freakonomics. It gives the evidence showing why abortion/infantacide is in fact GOOD!

It's how humanity prunes itsself.

It gives an excellent case in point thith Romania that outlawed abortion in the 60's.  20 years later, their society came apart at the seems with all the unwanted/neglected children who reached adulthood.

Offline jonathan79

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 12:41:52 PM »
Read the book Freakonomics. It gives the evidence showing why abortion/infantacide is in fact GOOD!

That was a great book.

Offline El

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 01:34:57 PM »
Yes, I believe abortion should be legal.  I'm morally against it, but making it illegal won't stop abortions from happening, it will just make them more dangerous.  I think that to vote for a politician that you think will push to make abortions illegal is rather foolhardy to say the least, as it will never happen.  Instead, I'd suggest that we do the following, which might REDUCE abortions:  Make birth contol easier to get and less stigmatized (it can be done, or at least improved), provide free counseling for women with unwanted pregnancies (or at least for women who have been raped), provide full medical coverage for women who are pregnant (wanted or unwanted), legislate decent mandatory alloted PAID maternity leave in employment, improve adoption services, make people more aware of such programs as Baby Safe Haven, and make them available nationwide, and, of course, give tougher penalties for sexually-based crimes (instead of making them, for some reason, less criminal than drug posession).  Now, all of these things may sound just as quixotic as making abortion illegal, but I think that they'd probably be EASIER to get the American public to endorse, and I think they should be done even not taking the issue of abortion into account.
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Offline McGiver

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 02:07:54 PM »
in my own situation i am totally against it.  my conscience would get the better of me if i agreed to aborting my own child.

but, i feel as if i have no right to say what others should do, since it is legal.
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Offline Callaway

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 03:51:19 PM »
I definitely think abortions should be safe, legal and available to women who want them. 

In the days before abortions were legal in the U S, wealthy women could fly to Europe for an abortion while poor women used knitting needles or coat hangers, or subjected themselves to back alley abortions, sometimes under less than sanitary conditions.  Sometimes they died from infection.  Who am I to tell some poor woman who already has more children than she can care for that she must bear yet another child unless it is going to actually kill her?  What if it is only going to make her sick?  By insisting that she must bear the child but can put the child up for adoption, is it our intention to make poor women brood mares for wealthy women?

I agree with all PMS Elle's suggestions, which I think will help with making abortions as rare as possible, but I do not want to see abortions outlawed and I consistently vote against candidates who propose that we do.

duncvis

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 03:58:49 PM »
I believe in minding your own fucking business. Fucking self-righteous, moralising busybodies. :finger:

Don't get me wrong; I'm not fond of abortion, but I'm in favour of keeping unwanted births down, since far too many kids grow up uncared for and unguided, turning into the sort of amoral, antisocial little cunts that plague British towns. Half of them would have been better never born. I'm against any government interference making it more likely for stupid people to breed. :tooledup:

ozymandias

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 04:25:07 PM »
Keep it legal.  If common sense was REALLY common, abortion would be rare.  But, I'm talking about the human race here, common sense doesn't factor into many things in regards to humanity. 

<end cynical pessimistic rant>

I can't say it any better than Serissa, Callaway and Dunc did!

Offline Peter

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 10:51:33 PM »
Read the book Freakonomics. It gives the evidence showing why abortion/infantacide is in fact GOOD!

That was a great book.

"In 1966, one year after Nicolae Ceaus¸escu became the Communist
dictator of Romania, he made abortion illegal. “The fetus is the property
of the entire society,” he proclaimed. “Anyone who avoids having
children is a deserter who abandons the laws of national continuity.”
Such grandiose declarations were commonplace during Ceaus
¸escu’s reign, for his master plan—to create a nation worthy of the
New Socialist Man—was an exercise in grandiosity. He built palaces
for himself while alternately brutalizing and neglecting his citizens.
Abandoning agriculture in favor of manufacturing, he forced many of
the nation’s rural dwellers into unheated apartment buildings. He
gave government positions to forty family members including his
wife, Elena, who required forty homes and a commensurate supply of
fur and jewels. Madame Ceaus¸escu, known officially as the Best
Mother Romania Could Have, was not particularly maternal. “The
worms never get satisfied, regardless of how much food you give
them,” she said when Romanians complained about the food shortages
brought on by her husband’s mismanagement. She had her own
children bugged to ensure their loyalty.

Ceaus¸escu’s ban on abortion was designed to achieve one of his
major aims: to rapidly strengthen Romania by boosting its population.
Until 1966, Romania had had one of the most liberal abortion
policies in the world. Abortion was in fact the main form of birth
control, with four abortions for every live birth. Now, virtually
overnight, abortion was forbidden. The only exemptions were mothers
who already had four children or women with significant standing
in the Communist Party. At the same time, all contraception and sex
education were banned. Government agents sardonically known as
the Menstrual Police regularly rounded up women in their workplaces
to administer pregnancy tests. If a woman repeatedly failed to
conceive, she was forced to pay a steep “celibacy tax.”

Ceaus¸escu’s incentives produced the desired effect. Within one
year of the abortion ban, the Romanian birth rate had doubled. These
babies were born into a country where, unless you belonged to the
Ceaus¸escu clan or the Communist elite, life was miserable. But these
children would turn out to have particularly miserable lives. Compared
to Romanian children born just a year earlier, the cohort of children
born after the abortion ban would do worse in every measurable
way: they would test lower in school, they would have less success in
the labor market, and they would also prove much more likely to become
criminals.

The abortion ban stayed in effect until Ceaus¸escu finally lost his
grip on Romania. On December 16, 1989, thousands of people took
to the streets of Timisoara to protest his corrosive regime. Many of
the protestors were teenagers and college students. The police killed
dozens of them. One of the opposition leaders, a forty-one-year-old
professor, later said it was his thirteen-year-old daughter who insisted
he attend the protest, despite his fear. “What is most interesting is that
we learned not to be afraid from our children,” he said. “Most were
aged thirteen to twenty.” A few days after the massacre in Timisoara,
Ceaus¸escu gave a speech in Bucharest before one hundred thousand
people. Again the young people were out in force. They shouted
down Ceaus¸escu with cries of “Timisoara!” and “Down with the
murderers!” His time had come. He and Elena tried to escape the
country with $1 billion, but they were captured, given a crude trial,
and, on Christmas Day, executed by firing squad.

Of all the Communist leaders deposed in the years bracketing the
collapse of the Soviet Union, only Nicolae Ceaus¸escu met a violent
death. It should not be overlooked that his demise was precipitated in
large measure by the youth of Romania—a great number of whom,
were it not for his abortion ban, would never have been born at all."

-Freakonomics
Quote
14:10 - Moarskrillex42: She said something about knowing why I wanted to move to Glasgow when she came in. She plopped down on my bed and told me to go ahead and open it for her.

14:11 - Peter5930: So, she thought I was your lover and that I was sending you a box full of sex toys, and that you wanted to move to Glasgow to be with me?

Offline Calandale

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 10:54:35 PM »
Pro abortion. Should be mandatory.

Offline Peter

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 11:06:23 PM »
The text of that book, if anyone wants to read it:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote
14:10 - Moarskrillex42: She said something about knowing why I wanted to move to Glasgow when she came in. She plopped down on my bed and told me to go ahead and open it for her.

14:11 - Peter5930: So, she thought I was your lover and that I was sending you a box full of sex toys, and that you wanted to move to Glasgow to be with me?

Offline jonathan79

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2007, 03:18:06 AM »
The text of that book, if anyone wants to read it:

Read the one about how they used children to shame the KKK, that was my favorite.

About the topic at hand.  I believe that abortion should be okay.  I used to live next to a home where the parents took in foster kids strictly for the cash.  It was truly a shame.  The kids were neglected and were left to do as they please.  I´m sure they didn´t exaclt turn into outstanding citizens, although I don´t know exactly where they are now.  They might have, but I highly doubt it.  Outlaw abortions and we´ll have more money making farms like that popping up everywhere.  The adoption/foster care system will collapse, and we´ll have to raise taxes for the extra million or so orphans that we´ll need to start supporting every year.  Add them all up cause they ain´t going nowhere till they turn 18, and we´ll have 17 million more kids in foster care after 17 years.  I don´t think the system could handle that. 

Offline El

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2007, 05:48:37 AM »
The text of that book, if anyone wants to read it:

Read the one about how they used children to shame the KKK, that was my favorite.

About the topic at hand.  I believe that abortion should be okay.  I used to live next to a home where the parents took in foster kids strictly for the cash.  It was truly a shame.  The kids were neglected and were left to do as they please.  I´m sure they didn´t exaclt turn into outstanding citizens, although I don´t know exactly where they are now.  They might have, but I highly doubt it.  Outlaw abortions and we´ll have more money making farms like that popping up everywhere.  The adoption/foster care system will collapse, and we´ll have to raise taxes for the extra million or so orphans that we´ll need to start supporting every year.  Add them all up cause they ain´t going nowhere till they turn 18, and we´ll have 17 million more kids in foster care after 17 years.  I don´t think the system could handle that. 

I certainly hope you're not implying people in foster care are destined to become psychopaths.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
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You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2007, 06:42:06 AM »
i suspect that he meant that it depemded on the care given by the care givers.
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Offline Callaway

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2007, 07:03:25 AM »
The text of that book, if anyone wants to read it:

Read the one about how they used children to shame the KKK, that was my favorite.

About the topic at hand.  I believe that abortion should be okay.  I used to live next to a home where the parents took in foster kids strictly for the cash.  It was truly a shame.  The kids were neglected and were left to do as they please.  I´m sure they didn´t exaclt turn into outstanding citizens, although I don´t know exactly where they are now.  They might have, but I highly doubt it.  Outlaw abortions and we´ll have more money making farms like that popping up everywhere.  The adoption/foster care system will collapse, and we´ll have to raise taxes for the extra million or so orphans that we´ll need to start supporting every year.  Add them all up cause they ain´t going nowhere till they turn 18, and we´ll have 17 million more kids in foster care after 17 years.  I don´t think the system could handle that. 

I certainly hope you're not implying people in foster care are destined to become psychopaths.

You know much more about foster care than I do, but even I know that there are some very good foster homes and some very bad ones.  Some people who do it because they really love the kids and others who just want the money.  I read about a two or three year old boy who was beaten to death by his foster father because he soiled himself.  I read about another little boy who was beaten to death by his foster mother with a wooden spoon because he would not mind her.  In another state, one little boy was taken from his mother because he was overweight and his foster parents made him chop wood with an axe and mow their lawn with a gasoline powered lawn mower.  He was just eight years old.  His mother had to jump through all sorts of hoops with social services to get him back home and it took months, but she could not do anything about the dangerous things his foster parents were making him do in the meantime.  There are biological parents who do horrible things to their children too, but I have read some truly horrible things that have happened to children in foster care, which is especially surprising to me because foster parents and homes have to be certified by social services.   How are these social service people so easily fooled by foster parents, yet they take children from their loving biological parents and put them into abusive or dangerous situations?  I think they view biological parents very negatively and they view foster parents very positively and their bias warps their judgement.