CHIRP!

[Alex179]

When I made the claim of 'dance music' not being so,
obviously I didn't mean all music that people dance to.
I meant the (c)rap that goes by that name. Essentially
just beat, and no melody.

I have nothing against distortion, used within music.
Nor necessarily outside of music. I just won't qualify
it as being music, just because it's done on a musical
instrument. A guy blowing through a hole in a piano
ain't playing the piano.

Notes are notes, no matter if they are modified after the playing is done on the initial instrument.   A clean guitar and distorted really aren't that different.   Sythetic instruments as violin synth on the guitar or keyboard is different than just distortion.   All of it is in the framework of music, despite your opinion on the matter.    There are melodies in rap, but they are sampled mostly.   Though there are a few rap artists (really hip-hop) that have instruments playing actual melodies, but they are more along R&B lines (and funk).   Those are far and few between though.    Rammstein has some melody within their songs.   Do you have ears?

[Soph]

I hear quite a lot of melody in rammstein
I don't think I'd like them if I didn't

[Alex179]

I hear quite a lot of melody in rammstein
I don't think I'd like them if I didn't

Most of it is synths and keyboards as far as the melodies.   The guitars just play chord progressions mostly.

[Calandale]

I mentioned that there is music INSIDE of the
ramstein pieces (though not what I had heard
before). Just as movies with soundtracks though,
having music inside of something doesn't make
it music.

[vodz]

Alex,
When I say metal bands are shit live, I'm referring to sound, not performance.
They may play everything right, but I can't hear it all properly so I don't admire it.

A clean guitar and distorted aren't much different? There is a huge difference in sound.
You even say so yourself.

Your views on electronic/programmed music are heavily biased.

[Alex179]

Alex,
When I say metal bands are shit live, I'm referring to sound, not performance.
They may play everything right, but I can't hear it all properly so I don't admire it.

A clean guitar and distorted aren't much different? There is a huge difference in sound.
You even say so yourself.

Your views on electronic/programmed music are heavily biased.

I hear everything properyly, maybe I just hear the notes better I guess.   It doesn't sound that washed out to me, more angry and biting in a way.   The notes and general frequencies are the same.   A good PA system and properly miked amps make a world of difference.   Rock bands have fuzzy ass over distorted stuff too, and it can wash out their sound as well in regards to added noise to the notes.   Sometimes it is more washy and noisy than metal distortion.   The melody should sound slick and liquidy to me with the right tone settings regardless of distortion or not.

As far as playing they aren't a huge difference.   Distorted playing can be the same as acoustical, you don't have to make special arrangements in most cases.  You can put delay and reverb on a clean guitar sound and make it sound different than it would normally.   I hate vocalists that soak their singing in reverb lol.   I hate the electronic pitch correction even more.   Takes less talent to sound perfect.

Biased towards actual live musicianship of course.   Starting a drum machine isn't the same as playing it yourself.   Playing with a group of musicians is different than programming stuff.   You have to be a tight unit with a focused sound.   You don't have to play that accurately every time live as a group and not just one DJ.

[vodz]

Alex,
When I say metal bands are shit live, I'm referring to sound, not performance.
They may play everything right, but I can't hear it all properly so I don't admire it.

A clean guitar and distorted aren't much different? There is a huge difference in sound.
You even say so yourself.

Your views on electronic/programmed music are heavily biased.

I hear everything properyly, maybe I just hear the notes better I guess.   It doesn't sound that washed out to me, more angry and biting in a way.   The notes and general frequencies are the same.   A good PA system and properly miked amps make a world of difference.   Rock bands have fuzzy ass over distorted stuff too, and it can wash out their sound as well in regards to added noise to the notes.   Sometimes it is more washy and noisy than metal distortion.   The melody should sound slick and liquidy to me with the right tone settings regardless of distortion or not.

As far as playing they aren't a huge difference.   Distorted playing can be the same as acoustical, you don't have to make special arrangements in most cases.  You can put delay and reverb on a clean guitar sound and make it sound different than it would normally.   I hate vocalists that soak their singing in reverb lol.   I hate the electronic pitch correction even more.   Takes less talent to sound perfect.

Biased towards actual live musicianship of course.   Starting a drum machine isn't the same as playing it yourself.   Playing with a group of musicians is different than programming stuff.   You have to be a tight unit with a focused sound.   You don't have to play that accurately every time live as a group and not just one DJ.

I admit I've made sweeping generalisations about metal bands sounding shit live, but I have been disappointed seeing bands I like (for example, and not limited to, Metallica, Parkway Drive) playing live. I never said rock bands were immune to this either!

Delay and reverb are poor examples to use against distortion, as they don't colour the tone in nearly the same way.
Vocals soaked in reverb often sound like they are singing in a toilet, I am in agreeance with you there. However, it depends on the quality of the reverb-device. Electronic pitch correction as it is often heard is used for the eerie electronic sounding effect more than perfecting pitch. So, bagging this is the same as bagging effects on other instruments (e.g. guitar distortion).

Your arguments against electronic music have nothing against the music itself, just the performance.
I could argue that there is as much technique required in performing live on computer (e.g. using Ableton Live software) and djing. It is just different to instruments which have existed up until the later half of the 20th century.
Be scared of new technology ooooOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOo! 

[Al Swearegen]

I like Fleetwood Mac.

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread much does that help?

If it helps support an argument please use it.  :lol:

[Alex179]

The performance is everything.   Playing something in the studio correctly once where you can do multiple takes is different than playing it right every time live in front of an audience.   People rarely perform live on a computer, mostly just starting up samples and such in time with the drum machine they programmed.   That isn't the same as having feel and precision while playing on an instrument.   You can hit a button to start a sample, but it doesn't mean you could ever play what was sampled in the first place.   Basically if you can't play it yourself, get off the fucking stage.   I do know electronic music is the future somewhat as almost everything has been done in music as far as notes go.

Metallica was pretty good when I saw them, no mistakes and their sound was decent for the acoustical properties of the venue.   Most clubs are shit acoustically.   You can't always see bands in an acoustically sound ampitheatre unfortunately.

Distortion just colors the sound, adds a flavour or spice on top of the meat that would be the actual guitar signal.   Bagging on vocals is different as it is the most human of all instruments and modifying the sound properties of vocals is one of the most dishonest things a person can do as far as musical integrity goes.   It makes people with shitty voices actually sound decent.   I don't like that.   Distortion on a guitar does not do the same thing, as if you suck you will still suck badly with distortion (can make it worse in some cases).  Guitarists don't need pitch correction to keep in key or hold a note lol.   Real professional vocalists shouldn't either.

[vodz]

The performance is everything.   Playing something in the studio correctly once where you can do multiple takes is different than playing it right every time live in front of an audience.   People rarely perform live on a computer, mostly just starting up samples and such in time with the drum machine they programmed.   That isn't the same as having feel and precision while playing on an instrument.   You can hit a button to start a sample, but it doesn't mean you could ever play what was sampled in the first place.   Basically if you can't play it yourself, get off the fucking stage.   I do know electronic music is the future somewhat as almost everything has been done in music as far as notes go.

Metallica was pretty good when I saw them, no mistakes and their sound was decent for the acoustical properties of the venue.   Most clubs are shit acoustically.   You can't always see bands in an acoustically sound ampitheatre unfortunately.

Distortion just colors the sound, adds a flavour or spice on top of the meat that would be the actual guitar signal.   Bagging on vocals is different as it is the most human of all instruments and modifying the sound properties of vocals is one of the most dishonest things a person can do as far as musical integrity goes.   It makes people with shitty voices actually sound decent.   I don't like that.   Distortion on a guitar does not do the same thing, as if you suck you will still suck badly with distortion (can make it worse in some cases).  Guitarists don't need pitch correction to keep in key or hold a note lol.   Real professional vocalists shouldn't either.

You obviously have no idea about what is involved in performing a live electronic set so there's no point arguing with you.
Originally we were talking about music anyway, not performance. You have employed the 'scarecrow' argument technique.

So modifying the human voice is bad, but modifying a guitar signal is good? Do you think metal would sound good with acoustic guitars?
Just wondering if you actually play guitar. I can tell you that when I play guitar clean, it sounds a lot worse than playing with distortion, which masks a lot of inconsistencies. I am not a very good guitar player but like to pick up my brother's axe now and then.

[Calandale]

I like Fleetwood Mac.

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread much does that help?

If it helps support an argument please use it.  :lol:

 

I do to, and it's my damned thread.

[vodz]

I like Fleetwood Mac.

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread much does that help?

If it helps support an argument please use it.  :lol:

 

I do to, and it's my damned thread.

I don't see your name on it 

[Calandale]

I like Fleetwood Mac.

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread much does that help?

If it helps support an argument please use it.  :lol:

 

I do to, and it's my damned thread.

I don't see your name on it 

Would it help any, if I put it there? 

[Alex179]

Metal can sound good with acoustic or clean guitar if it is played really well.   It wouldn't be as agressive or heavy though.   I play quite a bit actually, and I play both with and without distortion (more on my acoustic than my electric).   When I get time I will record some crap with the pedal I just got recently.   Metal doesn't have to be distorted in my opinion, just there is a "metal" type of high gain that is generally accepted.   It isn't like you can't play Metallica on an acoustic guitar or with a clean signal on an electric, just don't expect it to sound quite as heavy.   The guitar solos are what would change as some of the things like pinch harmonics would not come out as well (along with some of the really fast legato playing).    Distortion doesn't hide the bigger mistakes, and it responds to inconsitent playing.   It isn't like if I fuck up and don't palm mute something once, the distortion makes a sound like palm muting for me or anything.   If I don't do it right, it will still sound like crap.   It doesn't magically fix my 1/2 step bend and make it a full step or make my vibrato smoother.   It makes hammer-ons, pull-offs and trills easier to hear and that is about it.

I do know what is involved as I have friends that are DJs and it is quite a bit of management.  Even when not doing excessive scratching there is some work in mixing a live set.   It isn't the same as a band, group performance is more impressive as it isn't easy to coordinate a group of individuals all the time.  Orchestras are even more impressive, though they require conductors.   Performance is all that matters in the end after the composition has taken place.   Anyone can play a riff correctly once out of 100 times then copy and paste that shit on pro-tools until you have enough to fill a meter or however long you were going to play that riff.   Then you have a track for fills and such.   While recording you can have multiple takes, and that is what makes live performance 1000000 times more valuable.   You only have one take live, if you fuck up or do something wrong you are fucked and will have to improvise.   There is no second take.

[Calandale]

Putting another vid up.
Owe kosmo serious bonuses,
for suggesting compression method.