Political Persuasion

[duncvis]

You're confusing Libertarians with Liberals. Libertarians don't advocate a "big government" approach to social issues. Rather they believe on letting people make their own choices.

I believe in people making their own choices to an extent. Especially on things like economic matters, however when I come to social and moral issues I am traditionalist and believe the government has a role in defending traditional values. I am very much opposed to things like cultural relativism and environmentalism.

Why should divorce laws be more strict ?? If two people made a mistake by getting married and want out should'nt they be allowed to make that choice ?? What about a woman who's being abused ?? Why would you make it harder for her to escape being beaten ??

I do not believe in no fault divorce laws, divorces should only be granted if there is fault with the marriage (i.e a woman is being beaten by her husband). Also couples should go through compulsory counseling before marriage. Divorce is a serious social problem and it especially affects the childern involved.  I find it worrying half of all marriages end up in divorce.

This is what I'm talking about - the moralising that makes it difficult for me to get on with social conservatives. Why do you believe the government, or you,  has the right to dictate to other people how to live their lives, or to decide that you are right and others are wrong? As for being 'against environmentalism', that just makes you sound like a total fucking moron. Let me know when you start going crispy.

[ozymandias]

I'm moderate in many things, socially liberal, pragmatic, sometimes leaning towards anarchistic ideas, pretty much I look, listen and decide for myself.  I hate following a "herd".

[Teejay]

This is what I'm talking about - the moralising that makes it difficult for me to get on with social conservatives. Why do you believe the government, or you,  has the right to dictate to other people how to live their lives, or to decide that you are right and others are wrong? As for being 'against environmentalism', that just makes you sound like a total fucking moron. Let me know when you start going crispy.

Well it becomes a issue when the government has to pay out cash, for the consequences of things like drug abuse, divorce etc. Defending traditional values in my eyes is also economically efficient because in the long run less money is spend and can be given back in tax cuts. One of the consequences of the 60's and 70's is that 'it feels good, do it' approach to life is not necessarily good for society as a whole. I believe in rebuilding a sense of community, society once more sharing common values and expecting immigrants to assimilate into our society and accepting our values.

I'm all for conserving the environment and fighting real environmental problems. However not at the expense of human living standards and the economic development of the third world, that is not on. The radicals in the environmental movement are often anti-human Luddites. They oppose technology like nuclear power and GM technology which can benefit humanity and address the legitimate concerns they have like Climate change and level of pesticides in food.

[Scrapheap]

Well it becomes a issue when the government has to pay out cash, for the consequences of things like drug abuse, divorce etc.

Although this is true to a point, it's very easy to get on a Faustian slippery slope here. To what degree does economic benifit outweigh having an omnipotent government that can tell you what to do behind closed doors ??

Homosexuality has increased medical costs associated with it. Does that mean Gov should outlaw or put a tax on it ?? How would you enforce that ??

What about these winter mountianeers who get stranded and 5 million dollar search and rescue efforts are needed to save them ?? Should we regulate mountian climbing too ??

Liberals complain about gun violence and liberal attorney grops have tried to sue gun makers for damages. At what point to you call an end to this ??

And finally, what about abortion ?? Economists Steven Levitt ans Steven Dubner, along with several leading criminologists, have found that and INCREASE in the number of abortions leads to a DECREASE in crime !! Should we mandate abortions for low income women who have alcohol/drug abuse or crime history ?? The science tells us that this would be a GREAT idea !! (I'd almost agree myself)

You can use economics and pragmatism to rationalize almost any government regulation of our day to day lives.

[Teejay]

Although this is true to a point, it's very easy to get on a Faustian slippery slope here. To what degree does economic benifit outweigh having an omnipotent government that can tell you what to do behind closed doors ??

Homosexuality has increased medical costs associated with it. Does that mean Gov should outlaw or put a tax on it ?? How would you enforce that ??

While I am quite homophobic. But I am tolerant of homosexual relations, although I oppose same sex marriage.

Liberals complain about gun violence and liberal attorney grops have tried to sue gun makers for damages. At what point to you call an end to this ??

I agree overall there is too much ligitation in our society and law should be changed to reduce ligitation. I'm a skeptic on gun control because the link between less guns and less crime just simply is not there.

And finally, what about abortion ?? Economists Steven Levitt ans Steven Dubner, along with several leading criminologists, have found that and INCREASE in the number of abortions leads to a DECREASE in crime !! Should we mandate abortions for low income women who have alcohol/drug abuse or crime history ?? The science tells us that this would be a GREAT idea !! (I'd almost agree myself)

I dunno if abortion leads to a decrease in crime, it is much more clearer, tougher sentences, more prison building and more police reduce crime. I believe abortion should be discouraged and at least outlawed beyond the first trimester.

[Scrapheap]

You did'nt see the forrest for the trees in my post. I was merely giving examples of how your argument that conservative policies make economic sense can be warped.

The vocabulary word that was important there was Faustian

[odeon]

Liberals complain about gun violence and liberal attorney grops have tried to sue gun makers for damages. At what point to you call an end to this ??

This is a terrific idea. I hope it catches on.

[Litigious]

Why are people banning every freedom and anything fun called "liberals"? They're only liberal on political correctness and immigration. 

[odeon]

'kay. I fully support Iran's right to a-bombs.They should be allowed to have as much fun as the US, Russia, Israel, et al.

[Litigious]

Sure. But they'll better be ready for pay-back time. 

[odeon]

Did you ever play the game "Nuclear War" on an Amiga computer? Four countries race to build the biggest bombs and then, inevitably, end up bombing each other. In some cases, one leader was left standing in a barren landscape, yelling "I won, I won!"

Why is it that trying to save lives is always called "liberal" while supporting people's right to blow each others' brains off is called "conservative"?

[Litigious]

Yep. I've played it. And other similar games, back in the 80s. 

I don't really know about the re-interpretation of political terms. The word "Libertarianism" is actually kind of opposite to the word "Liberalism". Marquise de Sade was a Libertarianist.

[duncvis]

You mean libertine, I think Lit.

[Litigious]

Oh, yes, my mistake. 

[Scrapheap]

Liberals complain about gun violence and liberal attorney grops have tried to sue gun makers for damages. At what point to you call an end to this ??

This is a terrific idea. I hope it catches on.

It did catch on. The Lawyers cases were almost all thrown out of court. In the few cases with sympathetic Liberal judges, the gun makers threatened to quit doing buisness with that juristictions police departments. The police departments pressured the lawyers inot dropping their suits.