Author Topic: Industrial Society and Its Future  (Read 1897 times)

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2007, 12:45:50 PM »
Except for that I love driving and like to use the internet, I wouldn't miss most technological stuff very much, actually.

And I really like his ideas about overthrowing the "almighty" government and fake democracy once and for all and give the power to the people for real.

can the people govern themselves.
i believe that i can, but am leary of most everybody else having the ability to do so.

So you want to be their leader then ??

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 12:47:57 PM »
I think a lot of what Kaczynski said were the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic,

Yes, but the scarry thing is that a lot of what he says is true. It's a 50/50 mix of genius and madness.

I agree with a small part of what he said and I agree that he is a curious mix of genius and madness.  I'm not sure it is 50/50 though.  I think once he started making bombs to hurt people, the madman won the struggle.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 12:51:45 PM »
I think a lot of what Kaczynski said were the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic,

Yes, but the scarry thing is that a lot of what he says is true. It's a 50/50 mix of genius and madness.

I agree with a small part of what he said and I agree that he is a curious mix of genius and madness.  I'm not sure it is 50/50 though.  I think once he started making bombs to hurt people, the madman won the struggle.

When I say 50/50, I wasn't refering to his behavior, just his writings.  :angel:

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 01:01:22 PM »
Except for that I love driving and like to use the internet, I wouldn't miss most technological stuff very much, actually.

And I really like his ideas about overthrowing the "almighty" government and fake democracy once and for all and give the power to the people for real.

Do you want to grow your own food in a garden and prepare everything yourself, canning the excess to save for winter?  If not, I don't buy your argument that except for driving and the internet, you would not miss technology and what it has given us.

Kaczynski lived in an isolated cabin that he for the most part built with his own two hands.  He did not have electricity or running water.  If you do, then you are more dependent on technology than you realize.

We actually spent a very cold winter without running water when building my parents' house, and there often was no electricity, so I at least have some kind of idea of what it'd be like. But of course it would be pretty hard, at least to begin with.

Litigious

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 01:04:13 PM »
I think a lot of what Kaczynski said were the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic,

Yes, but the scarry thing is that a lot of what he says is true. It's a 50/50 mix of genius and madness.

I agree with a small part of what he said and I agree that he is a curious mix of genius and madness.  I'm not sure it is 50/50 though.  I think once he started making bombs to hurt people, the madman won the struggle.

As he wrote in his manifesto, how would he even had gotten it published without killing people? Horrible but truth. People are more interested in watching talk shows and doing all kind on nonsense instead of engaging themselves for democracy.  :(

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2007, 03:40:27 PM »
And I really like his ideas about overthrowing the "almighty" government and fake democracy once and for all and give the power to the people for real.
Human nature being what it is, giving the power to the masses is not going to do much good in the long run. Cultures as stupid as the ones that are and have been will continue to fall and form, plenty of power is inevitably going to end up in the hands of a few sooner or later, wars are going to be waged, and idiots will continue to be just as many.

Government in its current form (and in the form towards which it is currently heading) is quite ridiculous, though. The best would be the forming of one actually truly capable and competent - not to mention rational - though that'd be quite a challenge; no one has ever succeeded on a large scale. My ideal would be a meritocracy where those capable would be able to climb as far as they could get, and have an amount of power proportional to the position which they reach - and those not fit would thus be prevented from screwing things up.

Further technological development could provide the keys; a government part AI that would keep the meatbags in check would be neat. :evillaugh: It is only to be encouraged - either humanity will succeed, and hopefully be able to fix its inherently b0rken nature through genetic engineering, or it will work towards its own spectacular fall at a pretty fast pace - another fine outcome. ;)

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2007, 03:55:02 PM »
The thought is that there should be small, rural communities, without ant high-tech, so that the masses wouldn't rule large states, because there would be no such thing as a lagre state without electricity, modern communications, etc.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 06:28:23 PM »
The problem with a meritocracy is the merits that allow you to climb aren't the merits that would allow you to govern well....
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2007, 02:39:30 AM »
That's a problem that already Plato was aware of...Furthermore, the merits that you need to gain power aren't the merits that will make you a good and wise ruler.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2007, 11:30:32 AM »
The thought is that there should be small, rural communities, without ant high-tech, so that the masses wouldn't rule large states, because there would be no such thing as a lagre state without electricity, modern communications, etc.
I doubt it'd last all too long; larger states have formed under old-school undemocratic rule countless times before modern times, and sooner or later, it'd happen again, and the masses would be robbed of their power. Unless something by force would manage to keep it otherwise.

Before then, though, you'd have half-arsed mob rule on a smaller scale. As the new culture develop and knowledge recess, I'd expect widespread superstition - and all the nice things that come with it - to make a grand return.

And unless you'd somehow prevent technological advancement from reoccuring in the long term, humanity would sooner or later find its way back to its current path.

Humanity, by its nature, is like a ticking bomb that way.

The problem with a meritocracy is the merits that allow you to climb aren't the merits that would allow you to govern well....
Depends on how the system is formed; if individuals simply grab power according to the raw ability to do so that they've gained, it'd end up a bloody mess. If the power is distributed by the above levels of the system according to evaluated merits, though, you could get around the issue. To implement it, the very top of the government would have to be autocratic.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2007, 11:48:06 AM »
That's a problem that already Plato was aware of...Furthermore, the merits that you need to gain power aren't the merits that will make you a good and wise ruler.

Hey, I never said it was a new idea.  :P

Quote from: Fluffalizer
To implement it, the very top of the government would have to be autocratic.

And good luck finding a single person who has both the wisdom and authority to implement it properly, the power to maintain it, and a solid enough vision to know what are really merits and what are really flaws.
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2007, 12:10:52 PM »
And good luck finding a single person who has both the wisdom and authority to implement it properly, the power to maintain it, and a solid enough vision to know what are really merits and what are really flaws.
I never said it would be easy, nor particularly viable, for that matter. It is simply a somewhat pipe-dreamish ideal. Though there is a fair possibility that lies in the fact that a person wouldn't neccessarily be the best choice.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2007, 12:11:47 PM »
We're going to have to get a damn sight better at programming AI then. Unless you know any helpful aliens?
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2007, 12:14:23 PM »
We're going to have to get a damn sight better at programming AI then. Unless you know any helpful aliens?

WrongPlanet.org? :p

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Re: Industrial Society and Its Future
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2007, 12:17:14 PM »
The Plank, Hegemon? You're gonna give me nightmares!
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.