Anti COVID Vaccine and Passport Mandate March

[Calandale]

No.  Fuck it.  Let's do one more deep dive into the realms of ignorance.


Can someone paste up a link to the "evidence" that one in six people catch covid from the vaccination centres they attend (or whatever today's meme is).   Let's take a look at it.

That would be nice. But it may be a difficult burden - a less than fair demand by Eclaire to prove something that probably isn't all that important (and Omicron will probably provide that evidence). The more interesting one is where no one even has to do research. Just look at this thread.

I ain't seeing it. And, in order to maintain any semblance of intellectual honesty, you should be admitting your mistake - or pointing out what we've missed. When people brush off such factors completely, and don't own up to their own hyperbole, it helps create entrenchment in positions; the precise situation that is preventing rational discussions.

Saying that vaccines do not work is not a rational discussion.  A rational discussion would end when the antivaxer is handed the evidence to disprove their idiotic point of view.  But it doesn't.  They just change their belief system to exclude the point just proven.   That is not rational.  It is simply a waste of fuking time and effort for everyone else.


If anyone wants to post up whatever stupid reasons there are for not getting vaccinated this week I'll gladly point out why they're dumb and paste up some links to easily found peer reviewed science that any moron could have found for themselves in two minutes on Google.

Google won't show where Eclaire made the statement that you claimed she did.

This forum doesn't reveal it to me.

And this is where you're being dishonest. You keep sweeping where you're clearly wrong away.

An inability to admit your own errors makes you fundamentally an untrustworthy participant.

[Calandale]

Sorry, anti-mandate is indeed an anti-vax position, especially if most people protesting already were vaccinated - that more or less shows they're healthy enough to get another! Seriously, that very fact makes it all the more ridiculous. If there were actual issues with the vaccinations outside the usual rare allergic reactions, they wouldn't be well enough to protest.

There are people who are fully vaccinated who oppose the mandates.

Fully support and agree with vaccination, but don't see a reason to force it on people. So no, it ain't the same thing.

I supported mandates at one point, but am leaning further away from it as an unwise choice going forward NOW.
Mainly because the damage that such a step would cause now is greater than the harm it would prevent.
That wasn't so clear to me 6 mos. ago.

[Calandale]

I would have thought it safe to say that the available vaccines do work. There's a lot of evidence to support this. The problem is that not enough people get vaccinated, which allows the virus to survive and mutate.

Understand that viruses mutate all the time. It's what they do. It's evolution. It's natural selection and, while not necessarily good news for us as a species, not very controversial. Allow the bug to continue and it will change.

There's nothing controversial or new about any of this. The vaccines are kind of new and exciting, but how they are supposed to work is not. I repeat: there is nothing controversial about any of this.

Or at least there shouldn't be. Science gave you mobile phones and the internet and Aspirin, and it now wants to give you this.

Here's the screwy thing about the vaccines (or natural immunity) - they still allow for lower level infections, which are sometimes perfect breeding grounds for more mutations, as the evolutionary pressures are heightened. A virus in a non-protected person has no such pressures and can live on.

The only strong argument for vaccine mandates is the fragility that we've built into our health care systems. And this can be obviated by requiring vaccination in order to be TREATED for COVID. Otherwise, just lock 'em up in isolation.

[odeon]

Here's the screwy thing about the vaccines (or natural immunity) - they still allow for lower level infections, which are sometimes perfect breeding grounds for more mutations, as the evolutionary pressures are heightened. A virus in a non-protected person has no such pressures and can live on.

That's simply not correct. A mutation is an error in DNA replication and will occur regardless. There are factors that may increase those errors but "evolutionary pressures" do not increase if you introduce a vaccine. Quite the contrary, if the vaccine works - fewer are infected and the virus is transmitted for a shorter period of time, meaning that the number of mutations has to go down.

The only strong argument for vaccine mandates is the fragility that we've built into our health care systems. And this can be obviated by requiring vaccination in order to be TREATED for COVID. Otherwise, just lock 'em up in isolation.

Actually, there is a strong argument for vaccine mandates if you want to move about in society. It doesn't have to be because you need treatment for covid - although if you remain unvaccinated and ignore social distancing, there's a good chance that's where you'll end up.

[Calandale]

Here's the screwy thing about the vaccines (or natural immunity) - they still allow for lower level infections, which are sometimes perfect breeding grounds for more mutations, as the evolutionary pressures are heightened. A virus in a non-protected person has no such pressures and can live on.

That's simply not correct. A mutation is an error in DNA replication and will occur regardless. There are factors that may increase those errors but "evolutionary pressures" do not increase if you introduce a vaccine. Quite the contrary, if the vaccine works - fewer are infected and the virus is transmitted for a shorter period of time, meaning that the number of mutations has to go down.

Evolutionary pressures don't change mutation rates. They do impact which mutations are favored. Make life more difficult under circumstances (higher immune response) and the mutations which provide a benefit to evading the immune response are now favored. Of course, without the response to be evaded, there isn't any protection anyhow, so it's kind of a wash from our standpoint.

There is an interesting play between the quantity of mutations and dominance. You will get more mutations the larger infection rates. But there will be no incentive (in terms of suitability) towards evading immune responses that aren't present. What there will be an incentive for is reducing the virulence: because a virus which kills its host is less fit than one which doesn't. This is actually where we want mutations - and maybe should be playing to try to create a more infectious/less virulent strain (of course, that would be gain-of-function).

Actually, there is a strong argument for vaccine mandates if you want to move about in society. It doesn't have to be because you need treatment for covid - although if you remain unvaccinated and ignore social distancing, there's a good chance that's where you'll end up.

That only applies if the government is going to make other, even less wise choices - things like lockdowns in a disproportionate attempt to protect the stupid and/or severely vulnerable.

As to the "... there's a good chance that's where you'll end up." - yeah, if you're obese, elderly, or otherwise have a weakened immune system. But, I don't need a mandate to move around freely. Free and easily available vaccines are enough.

[rock hound]

Allow me to give my two cents worth........at 66 y/o.  I was vaccinated in my youth twice, for polio and smallpox, did I get those diseases NO, why?, the vaccines worked.  The rest of my immunity was derived from getting Measles, german measles, scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc. the old fashioned way...............I got the diseases and it was bloody fucking miserable.  In my later years as a nurse, I got the Hepatitis B vaccine, tetanus, diptheria, etc.  Did I get those diseases NO.  Amber got the full range of vaccines, except for chicken pox, she got that.  She also got the genital warts vaccine as well as the hepatitis vaccines. 

To hear some of you fools talk.............makes me wonder about the idiocy of the human race in general.  Oh yes, I also get the flu shots every year.  I got vaccinated from covid with the booster, I wear my masks and keep my distance from people.  And I am happy to say, I have not been sick in the last two years.  Though reading some of this crap is enough to make any rational person nauseous. 

[FourAceDeal]

No.  Fuck it.  Let's do one more deep dive into the realms of ignorance.


Can someone paste up a link to the "evidence" that one in six people catch covid from the vaccination centres they attend (or whatever today's meme is).   Let's take a look at it.

That would be nice. But it may be a difficult burden - a less than fair demand by Eclaire to prove something that probably isn't all that important (and Omicron will probably provide that evidence). The more interesting one is where no one even has to do research. Just look at this thread.

I ain't seeing it. And, in order to maintain any semblance of intellectual honesty, you should be admitting your mistake - or pointing out what we've missed. When people brush off such factors completely, and don't own up to their own hyperbole, it helps create entrenchment in positions; the precise situation that is preventing rational discussions.

Saying that vaccines do not work is not a rational discussion.  A rational discussion would end when the antivaxer is handed the evidence to disprove their idiotic point of view.  But it doesn't.  They just change their belief system to exclude the point just proven.   That is not rational.  It is simply a waste of fuking time and effort for everyone else.


If anyone wants to post up whatever stupid reasons there are for not getting vaccinated this week I'll gladly point out why they're dumb and paste up some links to easily found peer reviewed science that any moron could have found for themselves in two minutes on Google.

Google won't show where Eclaire made the statement that you claimed she did.

This forum doesn't reveal it to me.

And this is where you're being dishonest. You keep sweeping where you're clearly wrong away.

An inability to admit your own errors makes you fundamentally an untrustworthy participant.

You are deliberately trying to reframe the argument away from the point I did make.

The point being that the combined might of science and medicine has create a vaccine system that is relatively safe and effective and this exit strategy to a global pandemic is being undermined by people with little intelligence and even less education who think they have found something that the scientists couldn't from what they've pieced together from anecdotal and malicious data from social media.

That is my fucking point.

Stop wanking yourself off over symantics and post up your rebuttal.  Shit, or get off the pot.

[FourAceDeal]

Allow me to give my two cents worth........at 66 y/o.  I was vaccinated in my youth twice, for polio and smallpox, did I get those diseases NO, why?, the vaccines worked.  The rest of my immunity was derived from getting Measles, german measles, scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc. the old fashioned way...............I got the diseases and it was bloody fucking miserable.  In my later years as a nurse, I got the Hepatitis B vaccine, tetanus, diptheria, etc.  Did I get those diseases NO.  Amber got the full range of vaccines, except for chicken pox, she got that.  She also got the genital warts vaccine as well as the hepatitis vaccines. 

To hear some of you fools talk.............makes me wonder about the idiocy of the human race in general.  Oh yes, I also get the flu shots every year.  I got vaccinated from covid with the booster, I wear my masks and keep my distance from people.  And I am happy to say, I have not been sick in the last two years.  Though reading some of this crap is enough to make any rational person nauseous.

This.

Try and ask an antivaxxer whether it's just this vaccine that they're not liking or is it all vaccines?  You'll get a blank look and a lot of blinking in return. 

[Fun With Matches]

rock hound and FourAceDeal:

Shut up. You're both being extremely rude and obnoxious. There is absolutely no need for it. Cut it out right now.

[rock hound]

Allow me to give my two cents worth........at 66 y/o.  I was vaccinated in my youth twice, for polio and smallpox, did I get those diseases NO, why?, the vaccines worked.  The rest of my immunity was derived from getting Measles, german measles, scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox, etc. the old fashioned way...............I got the diseases and it was bloody fucking miserable.  In my later years as a nurse, I got the Hepatitis B vaccine, tetanus, diptheria, etc.  Did I get those diseases NO.  Amber got the full range of vaccines, except for chicken pox, she got that.  She also got the genital warts vaccine as well as the hepatitis vaccines. 

To hear some of you fools talk.............makes me wonder about the idiocy of the human race in general.  Oh yes, I also get the flu shots every year.  I got vaccinated from covid with the booster, I wear my masks and keep my distance from people.  And I am happy to say, I have not been sick in the last two years.  Though reading some of this crap is enough to make any rational person nauseous.

This.

Try and ask an antivaxxer whether it's just this vaccine that they're not liking or is it all vaccines?  You'll get a blank look and a lot of blinking in return.

Yep, spot on!

[Calandale]

No.  Fuck it.  Let's do one more deep dive into the realms of ignorance.


Can someone paste up a link to the "evidence" that one in six people catch covid from the vaccination centres they attend (or whatever today's meme is).   Let's take a look at it.

That would be nice. But it may be a difficult burden - a less than fair demand by Eclaire to prove something that probably isn't all that important (and Omicron will probably provide that evidence). The more interesting one is where no one even has to do research. Just look at this thread.

I ain't seeing it. And, in order to maintain any semblance of intellectual honesty, you should be admitting your mistake - or pointing out what we've missed. When people brush off such factors completely, and don't own up to their own hyperbole, it helps create entrenchment in positions; the precise situation that is preventing rational discussions.

Saying that vaccines do not work is not a rational discussion.  A rational discussion would end when the antivaxer is handed the evidence to disprove their idiotic point of view.  But it doesn't.  They just change their belief system to exclude the point just proven.   That is not rational.  It is simply a waste of fuking time and effort for everyone else.


If anyone wants to post up whatever stupid reasons there are for not getting vaccinated this week I'll gladly point out why they're dumb and paste up some links to easily found peer reviewed science that any moron could have found for themselves in two minutes on Google.

Google won't show where Eclaire made the statement that you claimed she did.

This forum doesn't reveal it to me.

And this is where you're being dishonest. You keep sweeping where you're clearly wrong away.

An inability to admit your own errors makes you fundamentally an untrustworthy participant.

You are deliberately trying to reframe the argument away from the point I did make.

The point being that the combined might of science and medicine has create a vaccine system that is relatively safe and effective and this exit strategy to a global pandemic is being undermined by people with little intelligence and even less education who think they have found something that the scientists couldn't from what they've pieced together from anecdotal and malicious data from social media.

That is my fucking point.

Stop wanking yourself off over symantics and post up your rebuttal.  Shit, or get off the pot.

Nope. I am deliberately pointing out what you won't answer - why you can't admit a mistake.

Intellectual dishonesty.


Which you are so completely invested in that you play every game you can to continue down the path.


This is far more concerning than your stance on vaccines. It speaks to your character and intransigence - not just whether you are deluded about evidence or some conspiracy theorist. It says you have a mind closed to further evidence, and are essentially no longer a rational being.

[Dirty Big Yoke]

rock hound and FourAceDeal:

Shut up. You're both being extremely rude and obnoxious. There is absolutely no need for it. Cut it out right now.

Sorry, zero tolerance for anti-vax stupidity.

[FourAceDeal]

Here's the screwy thing about the vaccines (or natural immunity) - they still allow for lower level infections, which are sometimes perfect breeding grounds for more mutations, as the evolutionary pressures are heightened. A virus in a non-protected person has no such pressures and can live on...

No.  This is 100% complete and utter bullshit and underscores what I've been trying to say.   In the time it took you to type out the pile of bollocks above, you could have instead spent that time fact checking yourself and in 30 seconds found that what you were about to type wasn't true.

This is just anti-vax fake science meme of the week.

I'll find you a fact check on it (there are many) because I know you won't bother to look yourself.

SARS-CoV-2 variants are not caused by vaccines and numerous Variants of Concern (VOC) were detected prior to mass rollouts of vaccines, despite suggestions to the contrary online.


The above quotes a CDC paper:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/scientific-brief-emerging-variants.html

[FourAceDeal]

Nope. I am deliberately pointing out what you won't answer - why you can't admit a mistake.

Intellectual dishonesty.


Which you are so completely invested in that you play every game you can to continue down the path.


This is far more concerning than your stance on vaccines. It speaks to your character and intransigence - not just whether you are deluded about evidence or some conspiracy theorist. It says you have a mind closed to further evidence, and are essentially no longer a rational being.

What specific thing do you want me to answer?  Type it out and I will reply.

[FourAceDeal]

rock hound and FourAceDeal:

Shut up. You're both being extremely rude and obnoxious. There is absolutely no need for it. Cut it out right now.

I have ran out of tolerance for people who repeat anti-vax memes as fact.  They're not opinions.  They are dangerous and willful lies and need to be addressed as such.