Author Topic: Why we have "unacceptable" words  (Read 2671 times)

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Offline Dirty Big Yoke

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Why we have "unacceptable" words
« on: September 16, 2020, 10:10:31 PM »
Content warning: racist words used in an analytical context

I remember having this discussion when I went to talk to the owner of a local LGBT group in my home town, mainly to research male identity issues as part of my final year group project for college. It helped make a lot of issues I've had, which I previously struggled to understand, or not care at all, suddenly "click" and make sense.

Why do we have words that are deemed "unacceptable"? This is something I've struggled with a long time, even to the point that I previously thought it was a load of bullshit - people should be able to say they want, offended be damned. In a society that values freedom of speech, this is technically true. Everyone is free to do so if they wish. But as we all know, freedom of speech doesn't mean you're immune what others will say in response, as not everyone will agree with you. In other words, freedom of speech != freedom from criticism.

While words and their meaning are arbitrary (look into semiotics for example), and that meanings/connotations are culturally learned, it's easy to think that certain words do not have any power. In a literal sense, they actually don't. But it's weirdly the same reasons why some do, as language itself changes by society and cultural norms themselves, and this of course determines what is/isn't acceptable to say. If certain words are used consistently in a certain way eg. certain words used in a racist context, then they gain that "power", culturally speaking.

This ranges from what determines swear words to the likes of racist/sexist language. Obviously it's different everywhere - "cunt" for example is seen as very sexist/off the charts on the swear scale in the US, while in the UK, Ireland and places like Australia, it's just a normal swear word, or even a term of endearment. But why the difference? It's because the consistent use is different, so those countries have naturally developed different connotations - eg. in the US, it is often used in a sexist context, while in the likes of the UK, it's often not.

Some words naturally do transcend borders though. Everyone knows "nigger", and to a lesser extent, "negro" are horribly unacceptable words to use in the vast majority of contexts everywhere, plainly due to the fact they were consistently used in an extremely racist context for a long time. If you say it to some random black person, naturally they'll be offended - statistically they're far more likely to get racist shit thrown at them all the time, so it's natural to assume a random person saying it is being a racist idiot (because they nearly always are in such contexts). In the likes of Spain however, "negro" simply is just Spanish for "black" without any racist connotations, but it doesn't mean the "power" it gained to rise as a horribly racist word is suddenly invalid.

This is partly the reason why media is adapted or have disclaimers for different countries, as each culture has different norms and contexts of what is acceptable, and as result can lead to miscommunication or unintentionally pissing them off. For example, in countries like Japan, any media they export often has to have a disclaimer or a change in translation because the cultural contexts and connotations are often quite different compared to the US. Studio Ghibli's Pom Poko is one example that's burned into my mind - the tanuki's testicles are simply changed to "pouches" in the English translation, because words depicting genitalia would not be considered appropriate for kids outside Japan.

Things get blurred/grey though - what is acceptable changes in different contexts or social groups. For example, what you say between you and your friends could generally be fine, but may not be acceptable to say to a stranger or at work, hence the need to be professional and "PC" in the latter contexts. For example - Imagine you're in a pretty close and diverse group of friends, and everyone lightly takes the piss out of each other for their race or ethnicity. This would be fine because everyone knows and likes each other, all having an unwritten social "agreement" because everyone knows it is done in jest and are not being truly racist. To a passerby down the street? They won't know, so naturally it won't be okay as there is no relationship to allow it in that context - as such, it is unwarranted and will be considered racist. We see this kind of logic here - we affectionately call each other and ourselves spazzes etc. on here as we're all on the spectrum, but I guarantee a lot of us would be pissed off if it were said to us by some random stranger walking down the street. I know I would.

Let me know your thoughts on the matter, but to me it just shows how grey/confusing language can be, and why you see people on the spectrum struggle with it in certain aspects.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 10:31:20 PM by Dirty Big Yoke »

Offline renaeden

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2020, 02:11:14 AM »
That was a good read.

I've noticed that the language used by people at the back of the Salvos shop might offend those that I do cleaning and sanitising for. They're office types who have all had or are going through high levels of education.

So does education play a part? I rarely swear - shit and piss are words I'll use though. I have a bachelor degree but where I do cleaning, they're doctors and administration professionals. Some of them lack common sense, putting used tissues and other gross stuff into the recycling bin when it has a recycle sign on the front of it. But I'll never swear around them because I don't know how it will be received.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2020, 02:43:30 AM »
In the likes of Spain however, "negro" simply is just Spanish for "black" without any racist connotations, but it doesn't mean the "power" it gained to rise as a horribly racist word is suddenly invalid.
Leeds United Spanish goalkeeper Kiko Casilla waas banned for 8 matches last season for saying "mark the guy in the black" in Spanish to another Spanish speaking player.  The "invalid" argument didn't wash with the Football Association panel.

Meanwhile...  You are generally spot on with it all being contextual.  Like everything else, morality is a function of society and subject to whatever variations that supplies.  For instance, in front of my wife I can use any four letter word in whatever context I want, but if I say words like "Moist", "Crevice" or "Cleft" I'm likely to get a slap around the head.
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Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2020, 02:47:43 AM »
I stopped swearing and using racist words and expressions years ago. Life is just easier that way, not having to worry about when I'm allowed to say something vs when I'm not.

Not long after I started working in the UK I was talking to a Pakistani guy at work about some cricket tournament and I said something like "I think the ****s were there". The **** being the first 4 letters of the word "Pakistani".

In Australia that word isn't generally offensive. In the UK it's about as offensive as the "N" word is in the US. I saw the look on his face and I said "oh, sorry, I forgot that's offensive here". And he said "that's okay, but don't use that word around other people because there is likely to be trouble".
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2020, 03:02:40 AM »
I stopped swearing and using racist words and expressions years ago. Life is just easier that way, not having to worry about when I'm allowed to say something vs when I'm not.

Not long after I started working in the UK I was talking to a Pakistani guy at work about some cricket tournament and I said something like "I think the ****s were there". The **** being the first 4 letters of the word "Pakistani".

In Australia that word isn't generally offensive. In the UK it's about as offensive as the "N" word is in the US. I saw the look on his face and I said "oh, sorry, I forgot that's offensive here". And he said "that's okay, but don't use that word around other people because there is likely to be trouble".

Someone introduced me to "The 12th Man" about 20 years ago and I was shocked by the use of the P word in it.  But then again, it's funny as f**k.  Still is. 
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Offline Dirty Big Yoke

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2020, 04:37:53 AM »
In the likes of Spain however, "negro" simply is just Spanish for "black" without any racist connotations, but it doesn't mean the "power" it gained to rise as a horribly racist word is suddenly invalid.
Leeds United Spanish goalkeeper Kiko Casilla waas banned for 8 matches last season for saying "mark the guy in the black" in Spanish to another Spanish speaking player.  The "invalid" argument didn't wash with the Football Association panel.

Meanwhile...  You are generally spot on with it all being contextual.  Like everything else, morality is a function of society and subject to whatever variations that supplies.  For instance, in front of my wife I can use any four letter word in whatever context I want, but if I say words like "Moist", "Crevice" or "Cleft" I'm likely to get a slap around the head.

I don't really follow football, but surprised they're on the ball (huehue) on racism issues now.

But yeah, it is something the "anti-PC" brigade seem to forget, people are not necessarily getting offended over the word, but the context and implication behind the common use of it. When it's a random stranger or some idiot like Scrap on here calling me something like a "potato bogtrotter" or something like that, then the context of what they say is very different than if close friend or my partner saying it. As a result, when they mean "anti-PC", it's just a copout from the fact they're actually being racist, because they feel uncomfortable about the idea of being the "racist". I find that weird because we all have implicit biases and times when we can all be racist in some form, the only difference is that non-racists understand this and learn from it (we're susceptible to thinking/saying irrational things at the end of the day), while actual racists give in to it and use it as ammo.

I used to think being "PC" was all about using wanky, convoluted words to appear as non-controversial eg. saying someone as "female identifying humxn bean" (as any reactionary would strawmen lefties as being like) rather than just "woman". In reality, political correctness is purely "keep it to yourself until you know their boundaries", similar to as you would in a professional setting - once you become good friends with that person, then maybe you can relax what you can say around them. It's a rather empathetic approach, I find.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 04:42:28 AM by Dirty Big Yoke »

Offline Dirty Big Yoke

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2020, 04:47:35 AM »
I stopped swearing and using racist words and expressions years ago. Life is just easier that way, not having to worry about when I'm allowed to say something vs when I'm not.

Not long after I started working in the UK I was talking to a Pakistani guy at work about some cricket tournament and I said something like "I think the ****s were there". The **** being the first 4 letters of the word "Pakistani".

In Australia that word isn't generally offensive. In the UK it's about as offensive as the "N" word is in the US. I saw the look on his face and I said "oh, sorry, I forgot that's offensive here". And he said "that's okay, but don't use that word around other people because there is likely to be trouble".

It's the same problem in Ireland - "Packy" is often used as a nickname for anyone called Patrick, but it can easily cause hassle if an asian person heard that because it sounds exactly the same as the P word.

Same with "black" - in the past in Ireland, calling someone a "black bastard" was traditionally meant for someone who was English (due to the black & tans), rather than actually being black.

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2020, 09:25:14 AM »
I stopped swearing and using racist words and expressions years ago. Life is just easier that way, not having to worry about when I'm allowed to say something vs when I'm not.

Not long after I started working in the UK I was talking to a Pakistani guy at work about some cricket tournament and I said something like "I think the ****s were there". The **** being the first 4 letters of the word "Pakistani".

In Australia that word isn't generally offensive. In the UK it's about as offensive as the "N" word is in the US. I saw the look on his face and I said "oh, sorry, I forgot that's offensive here". And he said "that's okay, but don't use that word around other people because there is likely to be trouble".

It's the same problem in Ireland - "Packy" is often used as a nickname for anyone called Patrick, but it can easily cause hassle if an asian person heard that because it sounds exactly the same as the P word.

Same with "black" - in the past in Ireland, calling someone a "black bastard" was traditionally meant for someone who was English (due to the black & tans), rather than actually being black.

In southern New England where I live packy is short for package store which is another name for a liquor store
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Offline Jack

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2020, 04:16:32 PM »
So does education play a part?
Thinking not. Like Yoke said, it's related to what's established as acceptable within a given context. Mom had a workplace culture shock in her last position, having never worked in a hospital before with professionals dropping f-bombs all day. Experienced a similar culture shock after the acquisition. with a lot of the employees from the new company being rather foul mouthed, and seemingly hostile because of it. Even caught myself cursing at work a couple of times, though what was most striking was my boss suddenly cursing, never hearing them curse in ten years working together. We talked about that and agreed about sliding down a slippery slope. Rarely hear it from anyone anymore, so maybe more was said.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 04:23:15 PM by Jack »

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2020, 05:10:54 PM »
Back in 2003 I was staying in the US for a few months with my girlfriend at the time.

She told me that my hair was a disaster and made me go get a haircut. She told me where the place was and said "go down there and get one of them wetback haircuts".

So off I went with every intention of asking for a wetback haircut. At some point while I was walking I had a thought that maybe wetback wasn't an American word for a type of haircut. So I just asked for "short".

Just as well. I may have ended up with a very bad haircut, at best. I asked my girlfriend when I got back if wetback was a type of haircut or if it meant something else.....
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2020, 03:17:05 AM »
Back in 2003 I was staying in the US for a few months with my girlfriend at the time.

She told me that my hair was a disaster and made me go get a haircut. She told me where the place was and said "go down there and get one of them wetback haircuts".

So off I went with every intention of asking for a wetback haircut. At some point while I was walking I had a thought that maybe wetback wasn't an American word for a type of haircut. So I just asked for "short".

Just as well. I may have ended up with a very bad haircut, at best. I asked my girlfriend when I got back if wetback was a type of haircut or if it meant something else.....

Had a similar experience in the 80s when I repeated the word "Beaners" without knowing what it meant.
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Re: Why we have "unacceptable" words
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2020, 07:22:00 AM »
Here, Beaners is a children's haircut chain. I'm completely ignorant of an offensive meaning.
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