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Author Topic: I quit  (Read 8432 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #270 on: June 23, 2020, 07:37:26 AM »
And, as MOSW pointed out, some "adapt" by not paying their writers, resulting in a bunch of amateur hacks producing content then quoted by the likes of Al.

Of course, not paying writers is not new in any way. I remember writing for some computer mags that would offer me free software instead of money. Said software was given to them for free for review purposes. ::)
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: I quit
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2020, 12:52:04 PM »
I did the same thing once upon a time.

I was fourteen though.  :zoinks:
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Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #272 on: June 24, 2020, 12:00:32 AM »
Wrote for computer mags?
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Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #273 on: June 24, 2020, 10:46:02 AM »
And, as MOSW pointed out, some "adapt" by not paying their writers, resulting in a bunch of amateur hacks producing content then quoted by the likes of Al.

Yep. And is Al gonna read quality journalism instead if it's hidden behind a paywall and he has to subscribe to read what it says? ofc not, if he subscribes to anything at all, it will be to something that confirms  his bias. If all these outfits just give us just enough free reading per month  that we can click on links to articles quoted on fora like this when the topic comes up in  discussion, then the Als of this world get some exposure to quality (and  relatively unbiased)  journalism, which has surely got to be better than none at all?

As for papers that have a left-wing bias, like the Guardian: I do, like I said, very much applaud them for offering unlimited free reading online, because otherwise they're pretty much undercutting their whole raison d'etre aren't they?  I've long thought it ironic that the price of their print edition is  way beyond the means of the poorer people in the UK, which pretty much leaves them in the position of educating the educated and preaching to the choir;  whilst the underclass get pulled  towards the right by cheap, slogan-chanting  tabloids .  Nowadays,  the internet gives them a chance to be freely availble to all, and they've seized that chance with both hands.  Now, given that do need subscriptions to survive, that's a risky move;  however  supposing their left-wing bias is sincere, i should think it's an essential move, politically speaking; especially given that so many  of our public libraries (where you could once-upon-a-time call in and read a wide selection of newpapers for free) have now been closed down. 

I'm not suggest ing that WP and NYT  should do the same, but it's a pretty poor do that you had to choose between them so categorically : full access to one, no access at all to the other.  So, if they all do the same,  then you can't check a variety of sources, when  you suspect that significant  information  has been omitted  - as I've done, on occasion,  with a number of stories. Haven't you? and often that turns out to be painfully  true . Beyonfd simp;e left-wing and right -wing bias, there are a whole bunch of other biases that influence reporters and editors, ofc , most often resulting in a "lie by omission" . The access to a wide range of sources that the internet has given us has made it possible for ordinary folk like us to get a more complete picture, when it matters. It's really sad to lose that facility, and could become  deeply worrying, if it actually comes to the point that you can only get free access to those amateur sources that you despise.

I was taught, at school (in English Language classes)  to avoid being over-influenced by media bias by reading a wide varietyy of news sources. Ofc that isn't practical on a daily basis (I don't even follow the new at all, on a daily basis, TBH. Sometimes I'm too caught up in other things) but i still do that whenever an issue is especially important or especially interesting to me. I have never fotgotten that excellent advice. Do they not teach that in schools anymore?  does nobody care anymore? because it seems obvious ro me that,  unless we happen to be pretty wealthy, we do need free access to a variety of news services in order to follow that advice.

That the Washingtn Post etc might lose a handful of paid subscriptions if they don't cut back on limited free viewing is by no ,eans a good enough argument to set against that general principle, IMO.  I don't even believe that  it's true. Getting all your  news via the limited free subscription route would be such a faff, in practice, that only the dirt-poor (unab;e to afford a subscription anyway)  or stubbornly  tight-fisted (to the point of masochism) would bother '. I'm sure most of us get our news primarily from a single, preferred souce, whether that's online, in print, or TV, then supplement that with limited free viewing, as appropriate, sometimes checking  citations in articles eleswhere, sometimes clicking on message-board links, sometimes digging for further info or alternative poits-of-view. None of that sort of activity would really justify subscribing to absolutely everything, so facilitating  it wouldn;t resu;t in lost subscriptions; but conversely, cutrtailing that sort of activity  would prevent theoccasional reader from developing a taste for a given source, and deciding to make that their primary news source , so potential subscribers would be lost.

Personally, I can say that if I'd had any disposable income, i would surely  have subscribed to the NYT online  at one pont,  on the basis of a few really interesting articles  of theirs that I'd read online (following a message board link)  I was sorely tempted. anyway ,  because  i used up my free allowance in no time, and could see quite a number of intrigueing headlines on their site that I wanted to follow .  I has to sternly talk myself out of it.  :laugh:  Most people still do have disposable income , I believe? so I'm sure they must habe reeled in quite a number of folk who felt the same as me, but who would never have been exposed to the NYT otherwise.  I've also been tempted into buying the print edition of mags , from my local newagent,. after reading online content. Again I'm sure I'm not the only one, and who could possibly keep track of that? In short, limited free vewing works brilliantly as advertising, can't believe the benefits don't outweigh the losses







Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #274 on: June 24, 2020, 11:07:24 AM »
The free content is shrinking as online newspapers struggle to stay in business. Yes, it sucks. At some point surely they will find other revenue models? Not a lot of people actually sign up for those subscriptions.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: I quit
« Reply #275 on: June 24, 2020, 02:13:30 PM »
Wrote for computer mags?

Well one in particular, that paid me in review software.
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Re: I quit
« Reply #276 on: June 24, 2020, 06:04:15 PM »
White people who say, "All lives matter" are like the founding fathers who said "all men are created equal."  while owning slaves!
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: I quit
« Reply #277 on: June 25, 2020, 01:43:17 AM »
White people who say, "All lives matter" are like the founding fathers who said "all men are created equal."  while owning slaves!

I'm still waiting for the people who brought us "All Lives Matter" to get on the "All Trans Lives Matter" train.
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Offline Phoenix

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Re: I quit
« Reply #278 on: June 25, 2020, 12:22:15 PM »
White people who say, "All lives matter" are like the founding fathers who said "all men are created equal."  while owning slaves!

I'm still waiting for the people who brought us "All Lives Matter" to get on the "All Trans Lives Matter" train.

 :plus: They're also the same people who think it's okay to rip children away from their parents at the border.
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Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #279 on: June 26, 2020, 12:11:45 AM »
Wrote for computer mags?

Well one in particular, that paid me in review software.

Which is fine if that is what you agreed to. Some of the ones I wrote for promised money but ended up offering software instead.
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Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #280 on: June 26, 2020, 12:27:34 AM »
And, as MOSW pointed out, some "adapt" by not paying their writers, resulting in a bunch of amateur hacks producing content then quoted by the likes of Al.

Yep. And is Al gonna read quality journalism instead if it's hidden behind a paywall and he has to subscribe to read what it says? ofc not, if he subscribes to anything at all, it will be to something that confirms  his bias. If all these outfits just give us just enough free reading per month  that we can click on links to articles quoted on fora like this when the topic comes up in  discussion, then the Als of this world get some exposure to quality (and  relatively unbiased)  journalism, which has surely got to be better than none at all?

As for papers that have a left-wing bias, like the Guardian: I do, like I said, very much applaud them for offering unlimited free reading online, because otherwise they're pretty much undercutting their whole raison d'etre aren't they?  I've long thought it ironic that the price of their print edition is  way beyond the means of the poorer people in the UK, which pretty much leaves them in the position of educating the educated and preaching to the choir;  whilst the underclass get pulled  towards the right by cheap, slogan-chanting  tabloids .  Nowadays,  the internet gives them a chance to be freely availble to all, and they've seized that chance with both hands.  Now, given that do need subscriptions to survive, that's a risky move;  however  supposing their left-wing bias is sincere, i should think it's an essential move, politically speaking; especially given that so many  of our public libraries (where you could once-upon-a-time call in and read a wide selection of newpapers for free) have now been closed down. 

I'm not suggest ing that WP and NYT  should do the same, but it's a pretty poor do that you had to choose between them so categorically : full access to one, no access at all to the other.  So, if they all do the same,  then you can't check a variety of sources, when  you suspect that significant  information  has been omitted  - as I've done, on occasion,  with a number of stories. Haven't you? and often that turns out to be painfully  true . Beyonfd simp;e left-wing and right -wing bias, there are a whole bunch of other biases that influence reporters and editors, ofc , most often resulting in a "lie by omission" . The access to a wide range of sources that the internet has given us has made it possible for ordinary folk like us to get a more complete picture, when it matters. It's really sad to lose that facility, and could become  deeply worrying, if it actually comes to the point that you can only get free access to those amateur sources that you despise.

I was taught, at school (in English Language classes)  to avoid being over-influenced by media bias by reading a wide varietyy of news sources. Ofc that isn't practical on a daily basis (I don't even follow the new at all, on a daily basis, TBH. Sometimes I'm too caught up in other things) but i still do that whenever an issue is especially important or especially interesting to me. I have never fotgotten that excellent advice. Do they not teach that in schools anymore?  does nobody care anymore? because it seems obvious ro me that,  unless we happen to be pretty wealthy, we do need free access to a variety of news services in order to follow that advice.

That the Washingtn Post etc might lose a handful of paid subscriptions if they don't cut back on limited free viewing is by no ,eans a good enough argument to set against that general principle, IMO.  I don't even believe that  it's true. Getting all your  news via the limited free subscription route would be such a faff, in practice, that only the dirt-poor (unab;e to afford a subscription anyway)  or stubbornly  tight-fisted (to the point of masochism) would bother '. I'm sure most of us get our news primarily from a single, preferred souce, whether that's online, in print, or TV, then supplement that with limited free viewing, as appropriate, sometimes checking  citations in articles eleswhere, sometimes clicking on message-board links, sometimes digging for further info or alternative poits-of-view. None of that sort of activity would really justify subscribing to absolutely everything, so facilitating  it wouldn;t resu;t in lost subscriptions; but conversely, cutrtailing that sort of activity  would prevent theoccasional reader from developing a taste for a given source, and deciding to make that their primary news source , so potential subscribers would be lost.

Personally, I can say that if I'd had any disposable income, i would surely  have subscribed to the NYT online  at one pont,  on the basis of a few really interesting articles  of theirs that I'd read online (following a message board link)  I was sorely tempted. anyway ,  because  i used up my free allowance in no time, and could see quite a number of intrigueing headlines on their site that I wanted to follow .  I has to sternly talk myself out of it.  :laugh:  Most people still do have disposable income , I believe? so I'm sure they must habe reeled in quite a number of folk who felt the same as me, but who would never have been exposed to the NYT otherwise.  I've also been tempted into buying the print edition of mags , from my local newagent,. after reading online content. Again I'm sure I'm not the only one, and who could possibly keep track of that? In short, limited free vewing works brilliantly as advertising, can't believe the benefits don't outweigh the losses

The fact is that there are more free sources available out there than ever before. Before the interwebz, did you have regular, unpaid, access to anything like WP or NYT? Maybe through libraries and similar, but surely not in any significant numbers. Yet the best of the free sources available now frequently include a PayPal button, hoping for voluntary contributions, because it does cost money to produce good, reliable content.

It's interesting that now that there are so many sources available online for free, people start expecting the traditional sources to start giving their content away for free, too.
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Offline DirtDawg

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Re: I quit
« Reply #281 on: June 26, 2020, 05:53:32 AM »

Just like Napster and PTP torrents did to music, right?
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Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #282 on: June 26, 2020, 06:45:55 AM »

The fact is that there are more free sources available out there than ever before. Before the interwebz, did you have regular, unpaid, access to anything like WP or NYT? Maybe through libraries and similar, but surely not in any significant numbers. Yet the best of the free sources available now frequently include a PayPal button, hoping for voluntary contributions, because it does cost money to produce good, reliable content.

It's interesting that now that there are so many sources available online for free, people start expecting the traditional sources to start giving their content away for free, too.

I get what you're saying, but i'm not sure you even read what I was I was saying, because that isn't an answer, just another facile gripe about people expecting freebies.

But to answer your question: when i was a kid, I had free access to a wide range pf quality journals and newspapers in the school ;ibrary (I doubt that kids have that now, given that our underfunded State schools can't even afford to supply free textbooks any more) ; and as a young adult, I had access to the same via the local library , as well as access to free further education and free higher education; all of which is now in the past.  This was before neoliberalism became the dominant theme in British  politics, on the so-called Left, as well as the Right.  I was brought up to beleve that the lower classes had just as much right to an eduction as everybody else, and to  expect the State to support that right; because that's how it actually was, for an all-to-brief peroiod in postwar Britain. And, naturally, those of us who were born in that period all mistook that for the natural result of "progress"and  "enlightenment", and never expected it to slam into reverse

I no longer expect that ofc , nor do I expect businesses to support that right instead. But when traditional souces such as the Guardian do support that right, via their online site, I applaud them , ofc, not because I personally like grabbing freebies, but because of the wider underlying social issues.

Hpw much does it actually cost these internet rags to let somebody who can't actually afford to subscribe browse for free?  Precious little I should think. The only [problem, then,  is how to squeeze money out of those who can afford it? There surely has to a better answer than simply continuing this retrogade motion back towards Victorian social mentality. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:51:17 AM by Walkie »

Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #283 on: June 27, 2020, 04:16:18 PM »

Just like Napster and PTP torrents did to music, right?

We'd need a new business model for news, which is not an easy thing and probably not comparable to what they're doing with music in the first place.

Look at something like NYT or WP. The problem is that unlike musicians, they're producing news daily, most of which will be - pardon the pun - old news before they'd even have time to spread.

Maybe something like iNews? Spotify for news? A monthly subscription allowing you to read them both, and other papers, too? And Spotify has till to show a profit, 12+ years after they first popped up.
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Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #284 on: June 27, 2020, 04:31:43 PM »

The fact is that there are more free sources available out there than ever before. Before the interwebz, did you have regular, unpaid, access to anything like WP or NYT? Maybe through libraries and similar, but surely not in any significant numbers. Yet the best of the free sources available now frequently include a PayPal button, hoping for voluntary contributions, because it does cost money to produce good, reliable content.

It's interesting that now that there are so many sources available online for free, people start expecting the traditional sources to start giving their content away for free, too.

I get what you're saying, but i'm not sure you even read what I was I was saying, because that isn't an answer, just another facile gripe about people expecting freebies.

But to answer your question: when i was a kid, I had free access to a wide range pf quality journals and newspapers in the school ;ibrary (I doubt that kids have that now, given that our underfunded State schools can't even afford to supply free textbooks any more) ; and as a young adult, I had access to the same via the local library , as well as access to free further education and free higher education; all of which is now in the past.  This was before neoliberalism became the dominant theme in British  politics, on the so-called Left, as well as the Right.  I was brought up to beleve that the lower classes had just as much right to an eduction as everybody else, and to  expect the State to support that right; because that's how it actually was, for an all-to-brief peroiod in postwar Britain. And, naturally, those of us who were born in that period all mistook that for the natural result of "progress"and  "enlightenment", and never expected it to slam into reverse

I no longer expect that ofc , nor do I expect businesses to support that right instead. But when traditional souces such as the Guardian do support that right, via their online site, I applaud them , ofc, not because I personally like grabbing freebies, but because of the wider underlying social issues.

Hpw much does it actually cost these internet rags to let somebody who can't actually afford to subscribe browse for free?  Precious little I should think. The only [problem, then,  is how to squeeze money out of those who can afford it? There surely has to a better answer than simply continuing this retrogade motion back towards Victorian social mentality.

I did read your post. I just don't agree with you.

How do you allow some people to read your content for free while at the same time making sure that others pay so that you can continue delivering that content? How do you find out who deserves their content for free and who doesn't? How much does it cost? I don't know, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. You want them to, and so you make a sweeping assumption, but you don't know.

No such thing as a free lunch, Walkie. It's not Victorian society mentality, simply a fact of life.
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