Author Topic: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".  (Read 6624 times)

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Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #300 on: May 13, 2019, 05:13:58 PM »
Here's the thing: we all (meaning the rest of the world) follow US politics but I never thought the opposite was true.

Well now, this reveals your bigotries now dunnit?

Perhaps my perspective as an Air Force brat is a bit skewed because the US air force had bases around the world and world events could influence our daily lives, so we were generally aware of the politics outside of North America. Even some of my grade school friends who were "locals" seemed pretty aware of what was going on outside the US.

However what you get in Europe is mostly anti US propaganda so I don't expect you to get it right.   :M

I don't know much about the mainstream media and it's biases in Europe. I can tell you that at least half the media here acts as the propaganda arm of the Conservative party. It's similar in the UK. It's not so much anti-Trump bias but what is considered newsworthy by a media more interested in clickbait and soundbites. Trump saying crazy shit is considered newsworthy.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Calandale

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #301 on: May 13, 2019, 09:23:13 PM »


Noam is no dummy but he gets several things wrong here. He sees the opposite of reality, he thinks the right has gone extreme while the left hasn't moved. Several studies (Pew research, Harvard and a few others) have confirmed that the opposite is true, the right has only moved slightly to the right but the left has drastically gone far left.


Do you have a time span for these moves? Because, that sounds correct for the last decade or so - but NOT for the
period of my lifetime.

Yeah, I guess the Jim Crow south was a bit before your time. Different studies have different begin dates, the earliest I saw was 1972  and the republicans have had only slight oscillations in that time period.



Rather than watching a 17 minute video, of someone going ga-ga about some charts he made to instead
I'd prefer some written evidence of the methodology used to paint those pictures.

Here's a few things I know (from the mid 70's as a starting point).

Taxes - higher than they have been since - especially on unearned income
Abortion - I was in a consistently Republican area (of NY state). There was little or no noise opposing it. Definitely some from down in the bible belt though.
Unions - far stronger than they are now
Environmental - can't remember much noise about "too much regulation"
ERA - yeah, this was a big thing
Guns - municipalities could impose pretty much whatever controls; no one was going around open carrying except when out hunting. And remember, even Clinton era congress passed the assault rifle (whatever that is) ban, background checks, ect.
Criminal Sentencing - the idea of mandatory minimums hadn't taken hold
Wages - minimums were set far higher in real dollars than today
Welfare - it was very easy to get a free ride
Education & the Arts - a lot more money for these
World Policeman - yeah, that was us, though 'Nam had trimmed our wings
Homeless - not much of a problem, most were institutionalized at state expense
Infrastructure - the roads were maintained
Busing - the state was moving kids quite a distance to achieve racial balances in schools
Using public school funding for religious schools - not a chance
Inheritance tax - legacies were not unlimited
Socialized medicine - even Clinton tried for this
Nazis - not good people
Mexican immigrant labor - seen mainly as misused
Bank Regulation - far more robust
Tariffs - far greater; but is the CiC changing the R's view on these? Dunno


That's not to say everything fits that mold though.

Interracial Marriage - yeah, this was still seen as pretty iffy.
Gay marriage - yeah right. Inconceivable.
Drugs - very few pols were in favor of any kind of legalization
Political Correctness - no where near what it is now. You can't even parody anti-PC speech now.
Socialism - pretty close to a dirty word
Monopolies - mixed; ok for utilities, big mergers were somewhat less acceptable


So, depending on which vectors you choose, I can see where you might manufacture what you like (in either direction).

If you make the argument that you're trying to pass off here though, you're basically saying that
Reagan didn't matter. Given that's at odds with what all sides of the spectrum (other than perhaps some
fringe groups on either side) have consistently believed since his presidency, it seems you've been taken
in by some disinformation.

Indeed, if you take the more libertarian side of the conservative movement, outside of free speech, it looks like
an across the board win. Of course, that was never the mainstream.




Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #302 on: May 13, 2019, 11:22:54 PM »
^Cal, that's enlightening.

It is similar here on some of those points. The union movement has been defanged. Wages are moving backwards in relation to the cost of living, and the union movement cannot even hang on to gains that were made decades ago (such as penalty rates).

CEO and executive salaries are rising while workers' wages are moving backwards. IF there were a strong union movement they would demand pay rises on the basis that if the company can afford to splash millions of dollars on senior executives, then they can afford an extra dollar or two per hour for workers.

My take on the handful of questions that I saw was that it was measuring how far left the respondent was compared to the status quo. Not against some baseline set of ideals.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Queen Victoria

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #303 on: May 14, 2019, 10:29:55 AM »
^Cal, that's enlightening.

It is similar here on some of those points. The union movement has been defanged. Wages are moving backwards in relation to the cost of living, and the union movement cannot even hang on to gains that were made decades ago (such as penalty rates).

CEO and executive salaries are rising while workers' wages are moving backwards. IF there were a strong union movement they would demand pay rises on the basis that if the company can afford to splash millions of dollars on senior executives, then they can afford an extra dollar or two per hour for workers.

My take on the handful of questions that I saw was that it was measuring how far left the respondent was compared to the status quo. Not against some baseline set of ideals.

Inserting myself here and darting out again.  I'd like to see the monetary part of any legislation tied to an index.  Minimum wage (and other wages by default) would rise automatically.  Fines, fees, etc. also.  Lots of details to be worked out, but it's a thought. 
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Offline Calandale

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #304 on: May 14, 2019, 03:01:36 PM »
^Cal, that's enlightening.


What's funny is that I'm seeing the same kind of dissonance (in my view) as I did
in Jack's post. Which is probably a sign that this is something that the lens you
bring is what's important. You  segment things to fit your world view.

Obviously, I'm doing the same. probably seeing more of the right-leaning stuff
than choices which could be used to reverse the trend.

I do find it interesting that libertarianism has largely (except on the most important
issue) won out. Neither party was really libertarian, but many people were.

The exceptions are free speech and  abortion

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #305 on: May 14, 2019, 04:42:35 PM »
 Contrary to popular opinion, support for free speech has actually been increasing. Particularly on the left. But maybe not on the alt left or among a few shouty students.

The idea that free speech is under threat is a typical bogeyman argument.

Just because I believe that what someone says is harmful and stupid does not mean that I don't support free speech.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Calandale

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #306 on: May 14, 2019, 06:33:37 PM »
Contrary to popular opinion, support for free speech has actually been increasing. Particularly on the left. But maybe not on the alt left or among a few shouty students.

The idea that free speech is under threat is a typical bogeyman argument.

Just because I believe that what someone says is harmful and stupid does not mean that I don't support free speech.

I'm not sure. People are getting fired for non-work-related speech now in a manner that
was not so much the case when I was younger.

On the other hand, people were unable to work for similar acts (political affiliation for example)
not so long before my youth.

Offline Jack

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #307 on: May 14, 2019, 07:22:09 PM »
I'm not sure. People are getting fired for non-work-related speech now in a manner that
was not so much the case when I was younger.
That's probably more related to the proliferation of social media use, as companies are now more at risk of negative impact from their employee's behavior outside of work, and thus code of conduct agreements commonly contain social media and other internet related clauses. Some companies are very strict about it, completely disallowing association to the company over the internet.

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #308 on: May 14, 2019, 08:28:55 PM »
What Jack said. We live in a much more connected world and public image is a lot more important to many companies now.

Look, you never had complete freedom of speech when it comes to employment. If you turned up for work each day and said to your boss "good morning you stupid c***" you probably wouldn't have lasted long in 1970 either.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Calandale

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #309 on: May 14, 2019, 11:24:56 PM »
Unless it was a government job

Offline odeon

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #310 on: May 15, 2019, 01:27:01 PM »
Here's the thing: we all (meaning the rest of the world) follow US politics but I never thought the opposite was true.

Well now, this reveals your bigotries now dunnit?

Perhaps my perspective as an Air Force brat is a bit skewed because the US air force had bases around the world and world events could influence our daily lives, so we were generally aware of the politics outside of North America. Even some of my grade school friends who were "locals" seemed pretty aware of what was going on outside the US.

However what you get in Europe is mostly anti US propaganda so I don't expect you to get it right.   :M

What do you think about the Danish elections, then? Any particular candidates?

Didn't think so. Uneducated fucking 'merican.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #311 on: May 15, 2019, 01:28:53 PM »


Noam is no dummy but he gets several things wrong here. He sees the opposite of reality, he thinks the right has gone extreme while the left hasn't moved. Several studies (Pew research, Harvard and a few others) have confirmed that the opposite is true, the right has only moved slightly to the right but the left has drastically gone far left.


Do you have a time span for these moves? Because, that sounds correct for the last decade or so - but NOT for the
period of my lifetime.

Yeah, I guess the Jim Crow south was a bit before your time. Different studies have different begin dates, the earliest I saw was 1972  and the republicans have had only slight oscillations in that time period.



Googling as fast as you can? So. Fucking. Weak.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #312 on: May 15, 2019, 01:30:31 PM »
Here's the thing: we all (meaning the rest of the world) follow US politics but I never thought the opposite was true.

Well now, this reveals your bigotries now dunnit?

Perhaps my perspective as an Air Force brat is a bit skewed because the US air force had bases around the world and world events could influence our daily lives, so we were generally aware of the politics outside of North America. Even some of my grade school friends who were "locals" seemed pretty aware of what was going on outside the US.

However what you get in Europe is mostly anti US propaganda so I don't expect you to get it right.   :M

I don't know much about the mainstream media and it's biases in Europe. I can tell you that at least half the media here acts as the propaganda arm of the Conservative party. It's similar in the UK. It's not so much anti-Trump bias but what is considered newsworthy by a media more interested in clickbait and soundbites. Trump saying crazy shit is considered newsworthy.

Never mind Scrap. He's googling this anyway.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #313 on: June 22, 2019, 08:06:14 AM »
Here's the thing: we all (meaning the rest of the world) follow US politics but I never thought the opposite was true.

Well now, this reveals your bigotries now dunnit?

Perhaps my perspective as an Air Force brat is a bit skewed because the US air force had bases around the world and world events could influence our daily lives, so we were generally aware of the politics outside of North America. Even some of my grade school friends who were "locals" seemed pretty aware of what was going on outside the US.

However what you get in Europe is mostly anti US propaganda so I don't expect you to get it right.   :M

I don't know much about the mainstream media and it's biases in Europe. I can tell you that at least half the media here acts as the propaganda arm of the Conservative party. It's similar in the UK. It's not so much anti-Trump bias but what is considered newsworthy by a media more interested in clickbait and soundbites. Trump saying crazy shit is considered newsworthy.

Never mind Scrap. He's googling this anyway.

Never mind you. You no longer do much but spout progressive Talking points with the righteous conviction of a evangelical zealot. It is not even your thoughts. Just what has been fed to you. You spout it back and pretend it is yours and do it with such moralising smugness and arrogance, it is pure cringe.
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How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".
« Reply #314 on: June 25, 2019, 07:25:20 AM »
Never mind Al, folks. He's just another moron with delusions of adequacy.
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