Does the president have too much power?

[odeon]

Al, an idiot does what you do. But then, you wouldn't know because you are that idiot.

Ah, but then I neither move the goalposts nor make claims that I do. You make such claims when no goalposts are moved. That makes you the idiot in this situation. Sucks to be you.

Like I said. You are that idiot.

[sg1008]

Al, how is it that you know so much about American politics?

I'm genuinely curious. I've been slightly following Brexit and have an inkling of whats going on politically, but not really. Plus I am aware that my understanding of the culture is mostly nothing, and it fascinates me to learn about the different ways folks think in different situations. Added later: My understanding mostly comes from the news to be fair, and watching footage of parliament once in awhile. Mostly I get world perspective from talking to someone from the area, and picking their brain about different issues.... For instance, politics in India, from what I've heard, is really intense and dramatic. I can make comparisons on certain things, such as their equivalent of affirmative action for the dalit caste.

All that said, I can only imagine it would be difficult to gauge American political environs (among its people) without being here and feeling the frustration, such as loosing insurance, being a part of generation with ridiculous debt, trying to get a job that pays more than poverty wages, the situation with government being shut down as a strong-arm move, or dealing with school children who are increasingly out of control- partially related to the chaos in the government and the examples they see being set, and those examples which they imitate when they want to be brats. Not to mention having to hold back vomit when folks entertain the idea that climate change is not real, and having to be cognizant of the increasing gall of right wing nationalist groups. Not to mention the general depressive mood that many women have been experiencing due to politics. And then the international embarrassment. Making threats, pulling out of deals, saying stupid shit. And now testimony WITH evidence that confirms criminal behaviour.

Embarrassing.

At the same time there is incredible hope, but being in the middle of it all, I can say, the majority of people i know (across demographic and political lines) are either "WTF", or questioning everything, or stuck on Abortion as their one Issue. A minority are not questioning anything and they watch FOX news- which isn't even news in a literal sense. I only have one uncle who is gung ho on trump and he is actually loosing his mind. he's also gung ho on Jesus, in a Southern Baptist way.

At least this has been my experience. Even people who voted for Trump are not usually gung ho on him. Many of the more conservative folks I know really think that the government is screwed up, and dont trust politicians, but vote on issues that they think will benefit them.

[Al Swearegen]

Al, how is it that you know so much about American politics?

I'm genuinely curious. I've been slightly following Brexit and have an inkling of whats going on politically, but not really. Plus I am aware that my understanding of the culture is mostly nothing, and it fascinates me to learn about the different ways folks think in different situations. Added later: My understanding mostly comes from the news to be fair, and watching footage of parliament once in awhile. Mostly I get world perspective from talking to someone from the area, and picking their brain about different issues.... For instance, politics in India, from what I've heard, is really intense and dramatic. I can make comparisons on certain things, such as their equivalent of affirmative action for the dalit caste.

All that said, I can only imagine it would be difficult to gauge American political environs (among its people) without being here and feeling the frustration, such as loosing insurance, being a part of generation with ridiculous debt, trying to get a job that pays more than poverty wages, the situation with government being shut down as a strong-arm move, or dealing with school children who are increasingly out of control- partially related to the chaos in the government and the examples they see being set, and those examples which they imitate when they want to be brats. Not to mention having to hold back vomit when folks entertain the idea that climate change is not real, and having to be cognizant of the increasing gall of right wing nationalist groups. Not to mention the general depressive mood that many women have been experiencing due to politics. And then the international embarrassment. Making threats, pulling out of deals, saying stupid shit. And now testimony WITH evidence that confirms criminal behaviour.

Embarrassing.

At the same time there is incredible hope, but being in the middle of it all, I can say, the majority of people i know (across demographic and political lines) are either "WTF", or questioning everything, or stuck on Abortion as their one Issue. A minority are not questioning anything and they watch FOX news- which isn't even news in a literal sense. I only have one uncle who is gung ho on trump and he is actually loosing his mind. he's also gung ho on Jesus, in a Southern Baptist way.

At least this has been my experience. Even people who voted for Trump are not usually gung ho on him. Many of the more conservative folks I know really think that the government is screwed up, and dont trust politicians, but vote on issues that they think will benefit them.

"Culture is downstream from Politics"

Atheism Plus is the reason. Atheism Plus and everything after that. Since that time I have made every effort to look to the US particularly when it comes to the nightmare that is Progressivism. It is like the worst elements of Marxism, Feminism, Globalism, PC culture, Socialism and Authoritarianism all rolled into one poisonous ideology.

Liberals on the Left caved pretty quickly. They were supposed to be the tolerant and open-minded side and they did not want to get cast as the bigots and so they let Progressive in and usurp any voice and set the terms. They took over Academia, Media and Hollywood and they set the terms. Politics for the most part have kowtowed to the Progressive/Globalist agenda. A Marxist/Leftist ideology of course it found its home in the Left and the Democrat Party in US. But the Right was tied to it somewhat through the Globalist ideals. This meant the the Right establishment could be controlled by being painted whenever they disagreed with the Progressives by calling them bigots or the like in which case the Right would apologise and/or defend themselves and give up their positions and roll over, to be the "better" people.

Progressive was the fad. Everyone was on board from Obama to Merkel. Every country was the same as another and tied by various multi country agreements that favoured no one and killed off the uniqueness of the individual nations states. No one questioned and no one dared. Politics were established and uniform and marched in lockstep together ever towards the cultural cliff.

Australia too took its lead as they do from US mainly with UK as a secondary influence and Europe generally as a tertiary influence (and Asia as an afterthought). Every Western Country was towing the progressive/Globalist line, why not follow them? Then along came Trump. He was not like any other politicians before and a lot of the "worst elements of Marxism, Feminism, Globalism, PC culture, Socialism and Authoritarianism all rolled into one poisonous ideology" he was not down with.

So now I am interested and motivated to learning everything I can and being an advocate and supporter of the anti-Progressivism, Anti-Establishment, Anti-Globalist, Anti-Feminist, Anti-PC culture, Anti-outrage Culture and Anti-Marxism, Anti-Socialism, Anti-Authoritarianism. Yes, damn all that to Hell.

[sg1008]

You speak as if ideologies were sentient aliens that could "invade" industries, like Hollywood. There are a lot of problems with Hollywood...I would say progressivism is among the least of their concerns.

Also, what do you have against feminism?

I was taught that feminism is the awareness of and commitment towards the fair, non-demeaning treatment of females and femmes in all areas of school, work, family, and politics. Basically, for the elevated dignity of women to the status of human beings. It wasn't until I began working that I realised the burgeoning necessity of feminism, and of being aware of discriminatory practices (this is based on what I saw happen with my coworkers). Now, people can take this concept of feminism and apply it in different ways, and I would say I dont necessarily agree with all feminists, but I agree with their freedom to question the status quo. In the same way I don't agree with all human rights activists, but I understand their desire to be treated with dignity.

That said, I would consider myself a feminist, and what does my feminism look like? I am very conscious when I am with children (any gender) to show and speak of female role models along with males. I am conscious at work to not underestimate the strength of my colleagues, and to avoid making comments/jokes about sex (female/male), and to not engage in the sorts of man-bro convos that can demean a whole gender. Now, am I known at work to be overly vocal or a police? Nope. I'm friends with most everyone and we are much like a family. Admittedly, many of us are aware of feminism, civil rights, and other diversity based issues and we tend to create a safe dignified environment for our team.

At any rate- feminism doesn't invade, neither does anything else. People turn to politics and ideologies as a way to help express something they are feeling, or that they agree with. My theory is that some people use hate as their base for a politic, and hate as a base for any politic automatically disqualifies it as viable for a general population, because hate in its core means that it will be dangerous to part of the population. I wouldn't trust a political argument that hated men, nor an argument that hated the rich. On the other end, one doesnt have to make love the base, although that usually is a more inclusive base for a politic...but some good bases are truth (paying attention to facts), dignity (striving for dignified treatment), diversity (putting a spotlight on improvements in inclusion), life (paying attention to conditions for health and good living).

Trumps politics are, at their core, about division and hatred. The statements he has made reflect this. The statements his "base" have been making reflect this. He is also about feeding his ego, which is a type of carelessness just as bad as hatred, when left unchecked. This is enough for me to be repulsed by his person, his party, and all those who shrug their shoulders at his carelessness-so long as they aren't the target.

He is simply not a leader, and should never have been put into the position to do something he does not know how to do, well or at all. That is my observation.

[Al Swearegen]

You speak as if ideologies were sentient aliens that could "invade" industries, like Hollywood. There are a lot of problems with Hollywood...I would say progressivism is among the least of their concerns.

Also, what do you have against feminism?

I was taught that feminism is the awareness of and commitment towards the fair, non-demeaning treatment of females and femmes in all areas of school, work, family, and politics. Basically, for the elevated dignity of women to the status of human beings. It wasn't until I began working that I realised the burgeoning necessity of feminism, and of being aware of discriminatory practices (this is based on what I saw happen with my coworkers). Now, people can take this concept of feminism and apply it in different ways, and I would say I dont necessarily agree with all feminists, but I agree with their freedom to question the status quo. In the same way I don't agree with all human rights activists, but I understand their desire to be treated with dignity.

That said, I would consider myself a feminist, and what does my feminism look like? I am very conscious when I am with children (any gender) to show and speak of female role models along with males. I am conscious at work to not underestimate the strength of my colleagues, and to avoid making comments/jokes about sex (female/male), and to not engage in the sorts of man-bro convos that can demean a whole gender. Now, am I known at work to be overly vocal or a police? Nope. I'm friends with most everyone and we are much like a family. Admittedly, many of us are aware of feminism, civil rights, and other diversity based issues and we tend to create a safe dignified environment for our team.

At any rate- feminism doesn't invade, neither does anything else. People turn to politics and ideologies as a way to help express something they are feeling, or that they agree with. My theory is that some people use hate as their base for a politic, and hate as a base for any politic automatically disqualifies it as viable for a general population, because hate in its core means that it will be dangerous to part of the population. I wouldn't trust a political argument that hated men, nor an argument that hated the rich. On the other end, one doesnt have to make love the base, although that usually is a more inclusive base for a politic...but some good bases are truth (paying attention to facts), dignity (striving for dignified treatment), diversity (putting a spotlight on improvements in inclusion), life (paying attention to conditions for health and good living).

Trumps politics are, at their core, about division and hatred. The statements he has made reflect this. The statements his "base" have been making reflect this. He is also about feeding his ego, which is a type of carelessness just as bad as hatred, when left unchecked. This is enough for me to be repulsed by his person, his party, and all those who shrug their shoulders at his carelessness-so long as they aren't the target.

He is simply not a leader, and should never have been put into the position to do something he does not know how to do, well or at all. That is my observation.

Make no mistake, i do not mistake Progressivism for sentient being. It would be so much easier to deal with a sentient being (it could be taken out back and shot). Nothing more powerful than an idea.

What i have against Feminism? It is at its heart a poisonous idea that in the righteous name of equality, rewrites history, demonises men, removes agency from women and does so with the backing of so many.

You know one thing really dishonest feminists have done that a lot of ignorant feminists believe? They believe that throughout history men collectively viewed women as valueless and kept rights from them to keep them down and hated women. That it was only through the efforts of Feminism that there was equal opportunity.

It is an illiterate reading of history but peopñe unquestioning believe it and act accordingly. Thus Patriarchy and Male Privilege become an original sin for men and women get to blame failure on men and a society that works against their interest and feel resentful towards men that apparently have and do conspire against women for some nefarious intent.

Except it was and always will be bullshit. Thank God i raised my daughter not to be Feminist. She has agency, pride, self-determinism and a help respect for men and women (except Feminists. She is not a fan of them - it was a necessary trade off)

Here is a weird concept i know but, treating people decently is not dependent on Feminism nor does it require it. There are always going to be people than demean, disrespect and bully. Just like there will always be rapists, murderers and thiefs.
People can be good or bad but being good or bad or making good or bad choices is no predtermined by the colour of someone's skin or the genitals they have. People ought not demean or bully people it really has  nit a thing to do with whether they are female or not.

Progressivism is poisonous. It is absolutely inclusive and tolerant up to the point where you question or don't tow the line (like brett weinstein) then they will unperson, ban, deplatform, fire, censor or moderate yoy and smear you aa a bigot.i do not have any store in it at all.

As for Trump. I like his America for Americans, "Make America Great Again". He is looking after ALL of America's citizens. More power to him. Its his job. Very inclusive policy as his citizens are all the races, nationalities, race, creed and genders. His policies seek to look after them.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

She has agency, pride, self-determinism and a help respect for men and women (except Feminists. She is not a fan of them - it was a necessary trade off)

That is one of the most ironic statements I have seen on I^2.

[Al Swearegen]

She has agency, pride, self-determinism and a help respect for men and women (except Feminists. She is not a fan of them - it was a necessary trade off)

That is one of the most ironic statements I have seen on I^2.

There is irony just not in the way you probsbly see it

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

You're probsbly right there.

I just thought there might have been a touch of irony in not needing stupid evil feminism because of.... all the cool stuff that feminism has given women. Your daughter sounds awesome Al, but I think you're both probsbly wrong about this one.

[Al Swearegen]

You're probsbly right there.

I just thought there might have been a touch of irony in not needing stupid evil feminism because of.... all the cool stuff that feminism has given women. Your daughter sounds awesome Al, but I think you're both probsbly wrong about this one.

Exactly my point. Not in the way you think of it.
Let's talk forces that allowed for a prosperous equal society.(In no particular order)

Vaccines
Pension
Superannuation
Better Birthing practices
Sanitary products for women
Welfare
Birth control

Which of the above things necessary for equality in society was Feminism responsible for and which was the result of modernity?

Why may men and women have been trapped into defined traditional gendered roles and not been in a position in society to NOT make men RESPONSIBLE for everything (and therefore have the "rights" to fulfill his OBLIGATIONS) whilst women were not responsible for anything outside of rearing babies and hoping that any given pregnancy did not kill them and that they could keep as many of their children alive as they could to look after them in old age?

Do you imagine that was because of Feminism or some of those things I listed above?

Did Feminism create opportunity and equality for my daughter OR did society evolve to a point where it was moving to a point where that was viable and then Feminism announced itself as the causal reason?

I will extend a little olive branch here. It is not that women's rights and Feminism had NO say in things. In the period from say 1900-1960 or better yet 1930-1960 a SHITLOAD of changes went down which changed the world forever. Now these changes were society affecting and were always going to open up opportunity in society. Would that mean that society within 30 or 40 years would go from mostly strict traditional roles to a less restrictive and equal rights and responsibilities across the board? Probably not. The changes of a millennium of society history will likely take longer to change. Probably no THAT long as it was heading to that space but a little longer maybe. Society would negotiate and adapt and feel out what to do with the new changes. Might take 50 or 60 years to adapt, unforced.

Feminism and women's right activists probably helped force this through a bit quicker. They were not the cause but they helped it through by organised political activism and sped the process up. Then promptly took all responsibility and pronounced themselves the cause of the success in equality.

Here is how I see it in an analogy.

Imagine a long baton relay race the runners have all played their part in pushing towards the finish line that was so very far away not that long ago. As they close in, a sprinter fresh and warmed up but not a part of the race, dresses in a team's outfit and runs stealthy up alongside the team he is dressed as, steals the baton as races across the finish line. The become a darling of the media and state how they won the race by themselves and held the baton from the start of the race. It does not get questioned. They played a part maybe but did not push it more than the end sprint. They were not responsible for the whole race nor did they run far and the person they snatched the baton from was still arriving just not quite as quickly as they.

[sg1008]

Are you saying you're mad because "Feminism" sped up an inevitable process and then took credit for speeding it up?

I'm confused.

Why are you mad about this? You're mad because you don't think women's movements should take credit for the good work they did, because society was supposedly headed there anyways (even though there's no way to prove this now)?

[Al Swearegen]

Mad? I am not mad. I am answering your questions.
Feminism was founded on a pretty monumental lie. I can't think of a bigger one. On such foundations and poisoned ideology it developed its lies to better promote itself.

I mean we can easily reverse engineer my theory easily enough. I made a list of things modernity of society has bought. So if equality in society was as a result of Feminism like Feminists claim, it should be easy to show me a third world or developing society where access to birth control, hygiene products, vaccines, welfare, pension and superannuation do not exist or are limited only to the very well off and tell me how far Feminism has worked there. Not so well? I wonder why? Must be the men right?

But of course IF it was simply a case that Feminism was simply a case feminism being there as part of a process to sped up equal distribution of rights, i would say hat tip well done. But they did not. They lied.

Not only did they lie but in creating this saviour of society narrative they created this narrative of Patriarchy and Male Privilege. Both of which on their face are ridiculous. They also positioned themselves all too very neatly in the Quasi-Marxist Progressivism, and are a relatively high pegging on the oppressive Progressive Stack.

Of course Male Privilege and Patriarchy is a lie too, but it is worse than that. It is simply a club to beat men and a crutch to remove agency from women. If you view 50% of the population a systematically and intrinsically oppressed and the other 50% as victims, there is absolutely no good to come of this. Women will be excused and coddled and men demonised. It will be an original sin. A taint.

How the Hell does that leave society better? They won't stop there of course. In addition to all this, pay gap. The average that men and women earn in fulltime wages is different. Is this because of A) women and men in general choice to make different work and lifestyle choices or B) Patriarchy. Also is equality of opportunity the same as equality of outcome?

Feminism falls over the examination of these issues it purports to be activist for.

Feminism as squandered the very little benefit and capital the had decades ago. Society would have been better without it because what little benefits were conferred by the short dash have been decimated by its dishonesty, corruption of agenda, oppressive narratives and it tearing down both men and women

[Gopher Gary]

I went to a feminist picnic once. It was pretty awesome, except for the fact no one made sandwiches. 

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

All social progress, including women's rights, have been achieved through hard-fought struggle. Often taking many decades. I can give you a bunch of examples, including feminism. Any counter-examples? Didn't think so.
Regressives tend to be a bit thick, and to see where we are today in terms of equal rights as a natural state of affairs that they would have agreed to all along. Which is, of course, nonsense, as people exactly like those regressives were the reason those struggles were so bloody difficult in the first place.

[Al Swearegen]

All social progress, including women's rights, have been achieved through hard-fought struggle. Often taking many decades. I can give you a bunch of examples, including feminism. Any counter-examples? Didn't think so.
Regressives tend to be a bit thick, and to see where we are today in terms of equal rights as a natural state of affairs that they would have agreed to all along. Which is, of course, nonsense, as people exactly like those regressives were the reason those struggles were so bloody difficult in the first place.

Any changes in society lead to adaption. That process often is not instantaneous but it not being instantaneous or confusion and/or initial resistance to change doesn't mean that change is not happening or going to happen. Hell, change for change sake is terrible and society needs to negotiate. It is the Liberal thing to do.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

Ah, the penny is starting to drop. "Society needs to negotiate". Regressives resist change, progressives promote change, society meets somewhere in the middle. And then the middle becomes the new baseline for social progress, the line that the regressives think is far enough, and that the progressives think is not nearly far enough, and the negotiation for a compromise continues.

//edit: just to add, that is how it normally works. Certain regressive political leaders can turn the clock back decades.