No Spanking Laws

[Callaway]

I see what you are saying, Hypnotica Gaze, and I agree that child abuse is bad.  I do not accept that a smack on the bottom of a child who has just run out into traffic is the same thing as child abuse, however.  I think that the parent who lets the child suffer the natural consequences of this action and who does not make every effort to stop this behavior by every means necessary is actually the abusive parent.  It makes more sense to let parents who practice nonabusive physical discipline as a part of disciplining their children do what they believe is best for their own children than to criminalize them.  If parents who smack the bottom of a child who runs into traffic are sent to jail, then the child will suffer much worse things living in a juvenile hall or foster home with people who do not love and understand this child the way his or her parents do.  Very bad things happen to children in the foster care system, at least in this state.  There are already laws against child abuse in every state in the US and a law against spanking goes too far.

[Leto729]

I have to agree with Callaway on this one.

[DirtDawg]

Anyone who believes that "there is no reason to use physical force" has never tried to restrain an autistic child in total panic mode.

"Sit" and "Stay" are not going to work, in those conditions, even when you offer a treat.

[odeon]

One problem is, Callaway, where do you draw the line? If physically punishing the child running into traffic is OK, what else is? Smacking it on the fingers for trying to steal a cookie? A tap on the head when it tries to peek where it's not supposed to? Smacking it because it just hit another child? How hard can you hit? Do you have to have the "right" clothing on so you won't inadvertently injure the child with a misplaced decorative button up your sleeve? Remove the watch or the bracelet?

A stressed, tired parent with three kids in tow, all under six, will have real problems controlling the hoard and could easily hit just a little too hard, without really meaning to. S/he might smack one instead of the other because s/he didn't see what took place while she was looking away. How will smacking one child teach the others that fighting among themselves is not OK but mummy or daddy hitting them is, for things they will quite often perceive as injustices anyway?

The laws in place in Sweden are there to protect the child. If you allow one little smack, then there's a huge gray area that is almost impossible to regulate before it transforms from that smack to child abuse, and it creates enough loopholes to protect the adult instead of the child.

[odeon]

Anyone who believes that "there is no reason to use physical force" has never tried to restrain an autistic child in total panic mode.

"Sit" and "Stay" are not going to work, in those conditions, even when you offer a treat.

I have an autistic son, DD, and know the realities of a meltdown. I have had reason to hold him and stop him from hitting other children (or me) on more than one occasion. Physical force, in these cases, consisted of holding him, not hitting. I have never smacked or hit my children, however.

[Nomaken]

No, my point was that even if a study shows that in some instances, however many, that physical punishment is ineffective, it isn't a proven fact that it will never be effective.

[DirtDawg]

(Physical force doesnt need to be used)

Odeon, I was responding to this, from HG and I should have quoted it properly, to begin with, since I misquoted the words, from memory. I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't spank my children, anymore. I have in the past, five times for my son and three times for my daughter. I honestly can't say it did anything good, except "change the subject" of what they had done, at the time.

I had to use a large part of my body weight to keep my son from destroying an area in a store, back in November. I'm certain that most people witnessing the event thought I was abusing my child, but he did not hurt himself the way I used to hurt myself and we got out of the store without breaking anything. I did not hit him, either.The only casualty was a towel display that was kicked as I carried him to the car.

When he turns seventeen, I'll be sixty and he will be much stronger than I will be, if he is anything like me (actually he is exactly like me!). I will no longer be able to pick his wiggly ass up and manhandle him out to the car. I will have to come up with some other way to restrain him, if this continues. Thank goodness it is a rare event.  I can remember having some episodes as a young teen and I really can't remember how my mom dealt with it, but I do remember being hit a lot (and being told to "straighten up") and never understanding why. I was mostly passive as a child and did not become violent towards bulllies until I was a freshman in high school.

In my son I see, not really violence, but overly aggressive behavior starting already. He used to be more passive. When he heard something contrary to his will he used to cover his ears, but lately he has been attacking the offfending mouth, directly. As a kid, I had my ass spanked a lot and I was not violent until post puberty. He has had only a few spankings and he is becoming violent, already. Honestly, I'm not convinced there is a connection, in this case, but something is altering his MO, rapidly. It is becoming a little worrying, to me.

[Leto729]

Spare the rod and spoil the child does that work no.

Discipline and child abuse are two different things.

Children are made to push themselves at a young age for it is ingrained in the DNA. That is how they learn.

Parents are there to protect them from harm. Parents are also there to encourage them too.

Nothing is every black or white odeon I believe.

I remember a divorced Father had to go to court and had to some court order classes because His youngest daughter had some black and blue mark(s) on Her and all He was doing was playing with Her not spanking or any abuseful things like that. He took the classes not because He wanted to but fighting it in court would had costed ($1600 in court if He would had fought it) more than what it was worth. Even the State Attorney in the end saw through the Mother She just hates Him even today.

[QuirkyCarla]

* QuirkyCarla spanks everyone in this thread

[Nomaken]

* Nomaken gets spank't.

[McGiver]

i totally wish i had the necessary concentration to read HG's post.

maybe i will later, when i am bored.

[odeon]

Spare the rod and spoil the child does that work no.

Is not hitting your child spoiling it? I think not.

Discipline and child abuse are two different things.

When does discipline stop and abuse begin? Can you define the amount of force used or the places to hit?

Children are made to push themselves at a young age for it is ingrained in the DNA. That is how they learn.

So? Hitting them will not change this.

Parents are there to protect them from harm. Parents are also there to encourage them too.

The more reason not to hit them.

Nothing is every black or white odeon I believe.

Which is why it's not possible to draw a line between abuse and discipline.

[McGiver]

parents should guilt their kids into do what is right?

[Leto729]

Now reply to My little story odeon.

[odeon]

There's very little to say, Kevv. Your story really only shows that innocent people will sometimes be convicted of a crime they didn't commit, IMO. It doesn't say anything about the topic at hand, but maybe I just miss it?