Author Topic: No Spanking Laws  (Read 11707 times)

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Scrapheap

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #165 on: May 02, 2013, 03:44:15 PM »
IT never was socially acceptable to beat the fuck out of children. Cmon.

You obviously didn't grow up in the midwest.

It was the norm for Nebraskans to beat their kids.

I heard the stories every morning at school.

But the Midwest isn't the majority of human beings. That's generally considered fucking retarded.

Whether or not it is fucking retarded is a separate discussion of whether or not laws should be passed against it.

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #166 on: May 02, 2013, 03:48:40 PM »
Surely someone in power should change the name of the thread from spanking to smacking... as over in these parts the term "spanking" is used for pleasure not discipline!

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #167 on: May 02, 2013, 04:02:18 PM »
I would never condone kids being taken away from their family because they spanked them.  That would harm a lot of children.  That would be silly and achieve nothing.   

blah blah blah

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #168 on: May 02, 2013, 04:05:08 PM »
Surely someone in power should change the name of the thread from spanking to smacking... as over in these parts the term "spanking" is used for pleasure not discipline!

It is the only reason i was drawn to this thread  :P
blah blah blah

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #169 on: May 02, 2013, 05:59:49 PM »
Surely someone in power should change the name of the thread from spanking to smacking... as over in these parts the term "spanking" is used for pleasure not discipline!

It is the only reason i was drawn to this thread  :P
it worked. :lol1:
Misunderstood.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2013, 06:02:29 PM »
:2thumbsup:  i dunno.  When i was growing up i got slapped,  a lot did.  A few got worse. 

Thirty years ago the following would not be unheard of:
Two blokes in a pub.  Bloke 1 says  " I got home from a hard days work on Wed and do you know what? the missus hadn't even got my dinner ready"  Bloke 2 nods, sympathetically.  Bloke 1 continues  "It happened again on Fri, now I'm a patient man but i had to give her a bit of a slap.  How else is she going to learn?"

^ We frown on this now yet at the time it was 'oh it's between a man and his wife, let them deal with it'  'keep it in the family'

Not saying this kind of thing doesn't happen any more.  It does.  But it is no longer a typical conversation in a pub.  It's no longer acceptable.

The day is coming when striking children no matter how 'lovingly'  (eh?) will be seen as unacceptable too.

And the day is coming when this concept will evolve on its own. It is up to the individual to decide this, and nobody else. I will speak plainly. Someone being a tyrant makes me want to snap someone's neck and do disrespectful things to their dead body. Nobody has the right to decide what rights other people have. NOBODY.
Then what about the rights of the child.  Human Right Act.  Don't you think it should include children?  It does in many countries.  Lots of places still exist whereby children are the only members of society that can be hit without consequence.  :thumbdn:

Children must be taught to have reliable decision making skills before they have the rights and freedoms of a full grown adult.... but yes, nobody should be the victim of a tyrant in any case.

ha! enough adults don't have reliable decision making skills!

 :apondering: Oh shit. I am formulating a new, even angrier outlook. Give it time.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2013, 09:05:59 PM »
I would never condone kids being taken away from their family because they spanked them.  That would harm a lot of children.  That would be silly and achieve nothing.   


Then what would be the legal consequences for spanking? Small fine similar to a parking ticket? How many tickets is too many?

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2013, 10:29:35 PM »
If swatting their bottom is not a good way to discipline a child, what aversive stimulus would you use?
The stupidity of humanity FILLS ME WITH RAGE!

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2013, 10:50:20 PM »
Me? The kids did calisthenics and ran laps around the house, not that it was needed much, good kids; mostly to break up sibling spats and burn off that steam.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #174 on: May 02, 2013, 11:12:04 PM »
This is part of the problem of this discussion. I will make sure I am deliberately blunt..

 I want you to consider and contrast these two statements:

"Bodie's partner hits her at when he is at her house"

"Bodie's partner smacks her bottom when they are in her bedroom"

Are both true statements? Anyone can try telling me that smacking and hitting are interchangeable and therefore  ought to be interjected as replacement word BUT they DO know j(ust like I did before I changed the context of the above sentences) that is is a dishonest  technique. Words and context do matter.
Hitting,smacking and beating are NOT interchangeable term.

Also there is another thing in all of this. That is the presumption that other methods of parenting are better and will work better for every other child
 I have not and would not seek to make the case either way.

tell me if a logical parallel could be made for the following

 Taking away toys for being naughty = stealing from those more vulnerable

Timeout = isolating and restricting others freedoms is OK

Raising your voice = scaring and intimidation is a powerful way to get what you need.

Say the better parenting style and I will deduce a terrible lesson it teaches and how it sets up a child for bad outcomes.

Shitty, I know. Its not fair and except on the rarest situations or with most excess in application true risking such a result, but hey, fair is not the name of the game when make sweeping generalisations about what smacking teaches.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #175 on: May 02, 2013, 11:29:55 PM »
True. Every method will have its critic. A gym teacher once criticized mine as negative toward healthy activity, but it wasn't negative in an active family, not at the time or even in hindsight.

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #176 on: May 02, 2013, 11:40:17 PM »
Me? The kids did calisthenics and ran laps around the house, not that it was needed much, good kids; mostly to break up sibling spats and burn off that steam.

The question was directed at all participants.
The stupidity of humanity FILLS ME WITH RAGE!

Offline bodie

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2013, 04:59:41 AM »
Decided to use the words of others,   i have copied the below texts from a Human Rights document you can find here http://www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk/pdfs/Equal%20protection%20for%20children%20-%20human%20rights%20obligations.pdf

If it doesn't change your view i hope it demonstrates that i am not deliberately using terminology to cause drama.  The terms i refer to such as slap, smack and beat  are all readily used by United Nations and those campaigning for human rights.  They are in our newspapers, and on our TV's.  The association with violence is already there.  I didn't just make it up.

Quote
“Violence against children is a violation of their human rights, a disturbing reality of our societies. It can never be justified whether for disciplinary reasons or cultural tradition. No such thing as a ‘reasonable’ level of violence is acceptable.
Legalized violence against children in one context risks tolerance of violence against children generally."  LOUISE ARBOUR, UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS

Quote
“All forms of physical punishment of children are a violation of basic human rights. These rights, protected by the European Convention on Human Rights, the European Social Charter and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, belong to children and adults.    We care for children and help them to develop, but we do not own them. As guardians of their well-being, we have a legal and moral responsibility to provide them with a childhood which honours their rights and leaves them with a legacy which does not condone violence.   Only when this happens will Europe become a true home for children.”MAUD DE BOER-BUQUICCHIO, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE, 2007

Quote
“How can we expect children to take human rights seriously and to help build a culture of human rights, while adults not only persist in slapping, spanking, smacking and beating them, but actually defend doing so as being ‘for their own good’?
Smacking children is not just a lesson in bad behaviour: it is a potent demonstration of contempt for the human rights of smaller, weaker people.” THOMAS HAMMARBERG, COUNCIL OF EUROPE COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, 2008


Maybe we should just accept that we see the act of spanking a child differently.  I happen to support the Human Rights path in extending the rights we have to include our children. 
blah blah blah

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2013, 05:25:22 AM »

Maybe we should just accept that we see the act of spanking a child differently.  I happen to support the Human Rights path in extending the rights we have to include our children. 

Who is the 'we' implied. This doesn't answer the question of consequences to parents who spank.

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Re: No Spanking Laws
« Reply #179 on: May 03, 2013, 05:57:52 AM »
I would never condone kids being taken away from their family because they spanked them.  That would harm a lot of children.  That would be silly and achieve nothing.   


Then what would be the legal consequences for spanking? Small fine similar to a parking ticket? How many tickets is too many?
The goal of such a law is to prevent it from happening rather than introducing petty fines with the expectation that the law will be ignored.

It seems that the countries who have already taken steps to ban all forms of corporal punishment have had desirable effects.  The focus being on education more than prosecution.

This article is a little dated, (2002) but does give an idea of how the policy has been working in places like Sweden.
http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/725230/
 

Laws against physically punishing children have been used to educate parents rather than prosecute them. Jackie Cosh reports

Aban on smacking children was implemented in Sweden in 1979. Since then only four children have been killed after being assaulted by an adult, and only one of these was at the hands of a parent - one child in 23 years, compared with Britain's one child a week.

Last year the Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment was launched in Geneva. Endorsed by both UNICEF and UNESCO, it is made up of prominent individuals from children's organisations worldwide. Its members call on governments to declare their opposition to corporal punishment of children and to set a timetable for eliminating corporal punishment.

A number of European countries have introduced some form of anti-smacking law - Austria (1989), Germany (2000), Croatia (1998), Cyprus (1994), Latvia (1998), Denmark (1997), Norway (1987), Finland (1983) and Sweden (1979). Generally reform has tended to be proposed not for the purpose of punishing people, but educating them, and so legislation has been passed under family or civil law instead of penal law, without automatic penalties.

Lena Nyberg is the Children's Ombudsman of Sweden, a position set up to safeguard the rights and interests of children and young people. She says, 'I think Sweden is a safer place for children since the introduction of the law in 1979. Opinions concerning physical punishment of children have changed drastically since then. Fewer persons find corporal punishment acceptable.'

Lasting effects

Sweden, the first country in Europe to ban all forms of corporal punishment of children, has conducted several studies into its effect. Much of this is documented in A Generation Without Smacking: The impact of Sweden's ban on physical punishment, a research paper by Dr Joan Durrant of the University of Manitoba, Canada, and published by Save the Children.

Dr Durrant found that Sweden has experienced a drop in the number of children taken into care and a decrease in compulsory measures of social work intervention. Concerns that the law would lead to an increase in prosecutions also appear to be unfounded. Dr Durrant discovered that the proportion of reported assaults legally pursued without trial has remained steady in Sweden, while prosecution rates have declined.

Likewise, Austria and Germany have reported no increase in prosecutions for child abuse, while in Denmark there have been no prosecutions since its law was introduced in 1997.

Adults, referring back to their own childhoods, often use the argument 'it did me no harm' to defend smacking. But in Germany, research had established a clear link between childhood experiences of physical punishment and the likelihood that young people would turn to violence and other anti-social behaviour. Concern about youth crime was high and anti-smacking laws were seen as a far-sighted way of dealing with the problem for years to come.

Lena Nyberg believes that teenage drug abuse would have been an even more widespread problem in Sweden had corporal punishment not been forbidden. 'The psychological and sometimes physical injury felt by the child or young person might provoke him or her to protest against his parents by resorting to anti-social behaviour such as drug abuse,' she says.

In Finland, Save the Children is working with schools to investigate the effect of violence on children. 'Two years ago we introduced a questionnaire to schools and kindergartens,' says the organisation's Jari Virtanen. 'The children answer simple questions on their lives in school and at home, and we hope to add in a further question to obtain a clearer picture about the level of violence in homes.'

Changing attitudes

It has been argued that legislation is not what the public want, and that the law of a country will not work unless it reflects this. But none of these countries introduced reforms in response to public demand.

Soren Gade Hansen, secretariat for the National Council for Children in Denmark, says, 'In 1998, 6,000 mothers of children born in 1995 were interviewed, and figures compared to a similar survey in 1968. It was found that parents are now less likely to hit their children than 30 years ago. Danish parents are much more interested in the child now as an interacting and participating person and treat their child according to that interpretation. They do not use physical power as much any more.'

Anti-smacking reform has always worked best when combined with education programmes. In Finland, the Ministry of Justice and National Board of Social Affairs launched a campaign with leaflets entitled 'What is a good upbringing?' and 'When you can't cope, find help: don't hit the child', which were made available in health clinics and social welfare offices. Just before the law came into effect, it was publicised on television at peak viewing times.

Attitudes have certainly changed in Finland. As Jari Virtanen of Save the Children Finland explains, 'Corporal violence and punishment towards children is seen as a barbaric method of educating or bringing up human beings. The phenomenon of smacking children in our country is very rare. If someone does it in a public place, you can be quite sure the person is not Finnish.'

In Sweden, the Ministry of Justice led a large-scale public education campaign in 1979. Pamphlets distributed to every household that had children emphasised that 'the law now forbids all forms of physical punishment of children, including smacking etc, although it goes without saying that you can still snatch a child away from a hot stove or open window if there is a risk of the child being injured.'

Information about the law was printed on milk cartons for two months in order to have information present at mealtimes when parents and children are together to discuss it. Parents were given paid time off work to attend parenting classes before and after a child's birth.

Lena Nyberg believes that this level of publicity was necessary. 'An important part of the success of the legislation can be attributed to the information campaign,' she says.

Alternative education

Germany also launched a public awareness campaign to accompany its law reform. This involved posters, advertisements and television spots. Projects and community initiatives were set up all over Germany, with prominent personalities appointed as ambassadors to promote non-violent methods of managing children. Slogans such as 'Help, instead of punish' and 'More respect for children' were used. Again, a wide range of media were used to get the message across - television, leaflets, public events, workshops and courses.

The purpose of reform is to educate parents about other forms of discipline, not to punish. This is the aim of EPOCH-worldwide (End Physical Punishment of Children), an informal alliance of organisations, whose members in Britain include Save the Children and Barnardo's. EPOCH has produced booklets and pamphlets promoting alternative forms of discipline (contact it on tel: 020 7700 0627).

It makes sense to look to Europe and learn from other countries' experience that education is the key to change.

As Lucy Thorpe of the NSPCC explains, 'The NSPCC doesn't believe that legal reform on its own would be fair or workable. Public education needs to go hand in hand with legislation, as has been the case in other European countries. We need mass media campaigns backed up by written information and sustained programmes of parenting education and family support.

'Here in Britain we tend to focus heavily on antenatal care, but relatively little help is available to parents to help them with the emotional side of parenting and behaviour difficulties. For attitudes to change, professionals must be able to educate parents and discuss alternatives to physical punishment. Change will only come through such sustained educational programmes, backed up by professional advice, guidance and support.'
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