Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student

[Litigious]

Good points. Litigious himself said that the US (where it's very easy to get guns, for the most part) has a lot more gun related crimes than Sweden, where it is very difficult to get a gun. Obviously, the more guns there are, the more gun related crimes there will be.

It would seem to be an obvious conclusion...

The crimes with guns are much less, yes, but the total killings of law abiding people is 50% of the US rate, if you count in the ones who commit suicide with a licensed gun in Sweden, about 180 people a year or one every second day. I thought you disliked all killings with guns, but suicide might be OK with you, odeon & QC? At least read my posts so well that you understand what I'm saying, even though you disagree totally in any respect of my view on the topic! 

[odeon]

Perhaps you should start reading our posts, Litigious. Never have I said or implied that I think suicides are OK.

Earlier, I gave you the benefit of a doubt when judging you; I believe I was wrong. You are a gun nut and dangerous--blowing up road signs and considering a Swedish version of Columbine, plus your views that a few deaths are perfectly acceptable so you can have your precious freedom, have convinced me to reconsider.

I'm glad i don't live in a country where the likes of you can get hold of firearms easily. In spite of your radical views, you belong to a minority, in more ways than one, and so your vision is probably not going to happen.

[Litigious]

Perhaps you should start reading our posts, Litigious. Never have I said or implied that I think suicides are OK.

No, but the fact still remains: It's extremely hard to get a gun in Sweden compared with the US. Yet 180 persons a year kill themselves with legal guns. They're to consider law abiding. 11000 law abiding Americans are killed every year. 275 millions/9millions is about 30. Divide 11000/30=367. 367/2=183.5. The rate of law abiding people killed by arms in Sweden then will be almost exactly 50% of the US rate, despite the ridiculous and humiliating gun laws here...

Earlier, I gave you the benefit of a doubt when judging you; I believe I was wrong. You are a gun nut and dangerous--blowing up road signs

Yes, far out on the countryside, after being fined by cowardly Swedish cops for the horrible crime of violating the speed limit on the motorway...Considering the gun laws, why aren't they out catching the big fishes instead, since law abiding Swedes are made slaughter sheeps by the law? If the citizens have no right to defend themselves like free men, it's the fucking duty of the police to catch every goddamn violent criminal!

and considering a Swedish version of Columbine,

For the ones who deserved it, yes.

plus your views that a few deaths are perfectly acceptable so you can have your precious freedom, have convinced me to reconsider.

Millions of Americans share that opinion.

I'm glad i don't live in a country where the likes of you can get hold of firearms easily. In spite of your radical views, you belong to a minority, in more ways than one, and so your vision is probably not going to happen.

We'll see about that. 

[odeon]

And who the fuck are you to decide who deserves to be shot? You really are nuts if you seriously think you get to decide who should die and who should not.

As for statistics, go look up my old posts in the arms threads--I think I quoted enough relevant facts to dispute your, um, interpretations.

[Litigious]

And who the fuck are you to decide who deserves to be shot? You really are nuts if you seriously think you get to decide who should die and who should not.

Of course I don't have an objective right to decide. But I might at least have some kind of understandable motive wanting to hurt or even kill anyone who has made my life a living hell just because they thought it was a fun thing to do and to push their own self esteem.

As for statistics, go look up my old posts in the arms threads--I think I quoted enough relevant facts to dispute your, um, interpretations.

First you can defend your stance on guns for that rape victim I mentioned. I'll be more than willing to bring your explanation. I didn't make that story up, it's the bitter reality for that person.

[ozymandias]

JESUS H. CHRIST, didn't the two of you have another thread to bitch slap each other on.   This thread started about a punk STABBING another kid to death in a high school bathroom.  Maybe we should change the name of this thread to the;  "Odeon and Litigious screaming and yelling at each other thread".   Quite frankly, the two of you are boring me to death, your never going to agree on this topic, in fact if I didn't know any better, my guess is that this "discussion" is better than sex for the two of you!

Oh well, I'm getting my say in and am going to leave you two love birds to your little tete a tete.  Have fun, clean up after yourselves and do turn the lights off when your through.

 :knight:

[odeon]

Ozy +

You're right, and I'm sorry. This discussion is over.

[McGiver]

JESUS H. CHRIST, didn't the two of you have another thread to bitch slap each other on.   This thread started about a punk STABBING another kid to death in a high school bathroom.  Maybe we should change the name of this thread to the;  "Odeon and Litigious screaming and yelling at each other thread".   Quite frankly, the two of you are boring me to death, your never going to agree on this topic, in fact if I didn't know any better, my guess is that this "discussion" is better than sex for the two of you!

Oh well, I'm getting my say in and am going to leave you two love birds to your little tete a tete.  Have fun, clean up after yourselves and do turn the lights off when your through.

 :knight:

note:

smilies added for emphasis.

[ozymandias]

Hey, you give me the smilies and I'm gonna run with them!

[Nomaken]

Mkay, back on topic.  I think stabbing people can be used for good.  And I don't like that the fact that they felt AS needed to come into play on it, since AS doesn't directly cause homicidal tendancies.  I have mixed emotions about whether this situation was for good or for ill.  If I had to put it to a vote I would say bad because I don't want to lose my membership to sane society.  But still, some part of me feels satisfaction that at least someone in some situation actually struck out against the assholes that plagued them in school, I think to make me feel better about all the times I couldn't strike back at the assholes in school.

And I would like to make a point that I feel like this kid was relatively normal.

I don't like trying to make out people like this as insane or ignorant or stupid, or that different from us, because I think it is an attempt to lie to ourselves about human nature.  Trying to tell ourselves that normal people don't get so angry that they would be willing to kill.  And I think that is a foolish attitude, not only is it disrespectful to everyone who has ever been enraged(not to mention rightfully), or pushed to despair to the point of killing themselves, it is detrimental to the correction of the situation.  If only crazy people kill then it isn't our responsibility to be nicer or try to give some people extra help, they're just crazy, luck of the draw.

Perhaps this kid was really crazy(to some degree) but I still don't like it when people do that, and you can see why it would be harmful to do it.

[ozymandias]

OK, maybe I'm missing your point, but, the victim of the stabbing DID NOT even know his attacker.  BUT, the attacker had made many references to committing a violent act.  The victim was NOT a bully, the victim was even known to have AS.    So why do you feel the attacker was "relatively normal".   I have had and still have violent ideations to the jerks and bullies of my life,  BUT, I AM NOT going to go into a restroom and stab an innocent person to death because of it!  Does that make me "relatively abnormal"!??

This situation was not for good, an innocent boy was killed because a jerk, who happens to have AS, carried out an impulse of violence!

Maybe you can explain to me where the "good" is in this situation!

Honestly, I have hit a point where I am now "Brassed" off at I2.  For the shit that passes for thought here!

[Nomaken]

Didn't even know him, where does it say that in the article?  Plus the article says it was likely premeditated, how the fuck did he premeditate it if he didn't know him?

[Nomaken]

I'm talking about this kid, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/20/ap/national/mainD8MONSA00.shtml , are you thinking of a different kid?

[Callaway]

I think the two of you are talking about the same kid, Nomaken.  I think Ozymandias knows more about the situation than you do, perhaps.

Have you bothered to find out more about the victim, James Alenson, before you assumed that James Odgren was defending himself against a bully?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/01/20/slain_teenager_recalled_as_good_student_who_avoided_trouble/

Slain teenager recalled as good student who avoided trouble
By Tracy Jan and Stephanie Ebbert, Globe Staff  |  January 20, 2007

Easy-going with a shy smile, James Alenson was a good student with a dry sense of humor who got along well with peers, recalled former classmates and his former speech team coach at Wilson Middle School in Natick.

The 15-year-old Alenson, whose family had moved to Sudbury from Natick last fall, was stabbed to death yesterday morning, allegedly by another student in a boys' bathroom at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School after a dispute.

"I cannot imagine him getting into a confrontation with anybody," said Deanie Goodman, who coached the boy for two years on Wilson Middle's speech team. "He was a really sweet kid, somewhat shy, a little bit quiet, and really easy-going. I could not believe this would happen to a kid like that."

Alenson was not a master orator and had joined the speech team at his parents' urging. But he was a good sport about going to weekly practices after school and cheered his younger sister, a team member and a great speaker, Goodman said.

Former classmates said that Alenson, tall and lanky with sandy blond hair and blue eyes, kept to himself and never caused trouble. But he would not allow classmates to pick on him, often retorting back when teased, students said. They do not recall him getting into physical fights....

Please follow the link for the full article.

Here is more information about James Odgren:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/01/23/state_report_describes_teens_early_aggression/

State report describes teen's early aggression
Suspect's parents sought better help
By Maria Cramer, Globe Staff  |  January 23, 2007

In seventh grade, John Odgren had several explosive episodes, was verbally abusive, and at times became physically aggressive, his parents, specialists, and teachers said, according to a state hearing report.

Odgren, who is accused of fatally stabbing a fellow student Friday at Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School, did not understand the "effect of his behavior on others," according to a decision by the state Bureau of Special Education Appeals in 2003.

His parents had argued to the state agency that their son needed better services than he had received from the Wachusett Regional School District, which had placed him in an alternative school in Fitchburg. At that school, he was so miserable he came home and "often spent evenings wrapped in a blanket, crying," one of his parents testified.

The state agreed that the placement was not appropriate and ordered Wachusett to pay for Odgren's attendance at a smaller program in Belmont that his parents had found.

The state report portrays a complex picture of Odgren, who has been charged with first-degree murder in the killing of 15-year-old James F. Alenson, a freshman at Lincoln-Sudbury. Odgren, 16, is depicted at age 12 as a highly intelligent but troubled preadolescent with poor social skills. He has a hyperactivity disorder and Asperger's disorder, a mild form of autism. Several specialists familiar with Asperger's have said that those with the condition are not more prone to violence than others.

The report, giving an overall description, said that Odgren became aggressive at times when confused or ordered to do work, but did not offer details other than to say he was suspended three times for physical aggression within a two-month period at Caldwell Alternative School in Fitchburg. His parents, at the same time, were expressing concern for his physical and emotional safety at Caldwell, whose principal declined to comment.

The report made one mention of him having "explosive episodes" in fall 2002 in Wachusett's special education program, but did not detail those. Wachusett school officials declined to comment about Odgren, citing student confidentiality.

Odgren's lawyer, Jonathan Shapiro, also declined to comment.

A pseudonym was used to describe Odgren in the state agency's report on the case; a source with knowledge of the decision confirmed that the boy described in the report was Odgren....

Please follow the link for the full article.

Here is still more information about John Odgren:

http://www.milforddailynews.com/homepage/8998991617184497663

Students say assailant talked about murder, bombs
By Richard Lodge/Daily News staff
Friday, January 19, 2007 - Updated: 11:50 PM EST
 
 Just hours after a classmate was stabbed to death in a school bathroom, two Lincoln-Sudbury High School juniors yesterday said the student now accused of the killing often wore a trench coat to school and talked about murder, forensics and how he wanted to make a bomb.

Katie Crowley of Framingham, a junior at L-S, said a friend at the school saw the boy they knew only as "Jack" stumble into a classroom with blood on his hands shortly after the attack, saying, "It was an accident, it was an accident."

Brianna Hogge, also a junior at L-S, said "Jack" was "always asking how to get away with killing people and talking about how to make acid to make bombs. He was a really creepy kid."

Hogge said the student "was always talking about murder, overly interested in forensics and not happy things."

She said the young man had, in the past, talked to many students and some teachers about his unusual interests.

Shortly after the stabbing, school authorities and police took John Odgren, 16, of Princeton, into custody. Odgren was charged with murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and carrying a knife on school property and held without bail in Middlesex County Jail in Cambridge.

Crowley said she heard from friends that "Jack" "walked into East House with blood on his hands and said it was an accident.' I guess he had a straight face about it."

Please follow the link for the full article.

Also, apparently John Odgren had an extensive knife collection, although why his parents would permit this given their concerns about his violence, I can't understand:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=178137

John Odgren is a private kid who spent hours exploring the vast woods around his secluded Princeton home, neighbors said, sometimes carrying a machete.
 
He is a kid who showed an “unusually strong interest” in criminal forensics and who once boasted to a fellow student about his large knife collection. And he is also the type of kid that high schoolers quickly recognize: The one who gets picked on and left out because he comes off as weird.
 
Acquaintances yesterday tried to make sense of the 16-year-old accused killer, who has Asperger’s syndrome, a developmental disorder.

Please follow the link for the full article.

[Nomaken]

No, I made my judgement on the basis of the one article listed here.  But even if this kid WAS crazy, dehumanizing people who do shit to get them into the news is a bad idea.

And I didn't suggest he killed the kid in self defense, although I did assume the kid was someone he didn't like.