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Author Topic: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student  (Read 10177 times)

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #180 on: January 23, 2007, 02:37:52 PM »
Never mind Scrap, QC. He's mostly target practice. ;)

Unfortunately for you, you couldn't hit the flat side of a barn from the inside with the doors closed!! :LMAO:

Only because Odeon has never fired a gun, Scrapheap.   ;)

He misses with his comments as well.  ;)

You just can't stand getting pwned. ;)

The Dark Sith Lord has deluded you into thinking you pwned me. I'm too strong in the Schwartz for that!!! :vader:

Offline odeon

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #181 on: January 23, 2007, 04:53:54 PM »
Lit, I was letting it go. I was joking. We aren't really getting anywhere; you can't convince me, at all. Your arguments are hollow at best.

Because I don't agree with you?

No, because you're arguing for a cause that you know is wrong, deep down.

Quote from: odeon
But OK; fewer guns will take care of both problems. If there weren't for the current restrictions, more people would commit suicide, more people would be killed by firearms. I don't understand the point with your comments. Do you think the numbers are OK? Do you find them acceptable? Are they an acceptable price to pay? I don't know if your statistics are correct; I can't be arsed to check them right now, but the exact numbers are not the point.

No, you can't be arsed, because your sister once was nearly killed by a gun, and that day you decided that guns are evil and should be restricted or, if possible, totally banned. You haven't even fired yourself one in your whole life. I say that restrictions don't stop the ones who want to kill themselves and are already in possess of a gun. Neither do they stop criminals who are just the slightest advanced. They only stop law abiding people who want to protect themselves from doing it legally and easily. And yes, for the sake of freedom, the numbers are acceptable. It's a pretty low price to pay. Cars, tobacco, alcohol and junk food each kill more people than guns, but that obviously doesn't bother you or other haplophobes very much.

Another one of your moronic conclusions. I didn't look up your numbers because I was working on my laptop with a relatively tiny screen and a slow connection, but also because they don't actually make a difference. They don't validate your point, at all. What's sad is that you don't see it.

1) My stance against guns has very little to do with what almost happened to my sister. 2) Fewer guns means fewer gun-related crimes. More gun restrictions means fewer gun-related violence. There are many studies that prove this, among them the Harvard study I quoted. 3) Actually, deaths related to cars, tobacco, etc bother me a lot but they belong to another discussion. Are you saying that if you were a doctor, you'd only treat the epidemics? 4) I'd like you to explain your views on freedom and your right to guns to the parents and relatives for the twelve students and one teachers that died in the Columbine massacre.

Btw, a technicality, the "law-abiding" people in Sweden wanting to "protect" themselves with guns stop being law-abiding the second they get those guns. Thankfully.

Oh, and btw, did you or did you not ever come face to face with an armed criminal?

Quote from: odeon
Did you know that the US states in the highest quartile of firearm ownership had overall homicide rates 60 per cent higher than states in the lowest quartile? Guns kill, Lit, and that fact is hard to avoid, even for you.

No, I didn't know, beacuse I count by gun laws, not by percentage of guns. Percentage doesn't make sense. Vermont has the most liberal gun law in the whole US, but not the highest death rates. You should count by gun laws and not by actual percentage of guns, because your "theory" is that liberal gun laws cause gun crimes but they don't. It's criminals getting access to guns that cause most gun crimes. 

Those percentages make perfect sense, actually, because we are talking about privately owned guns in people's homes. The numbers add up, as they say. And there's more in that study. A lot more. The problem here is that you don't understand, or you don't want to understand.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #182 on: January 23, 2007, 09:38:19 PM »

Those percentages make perfect sense, actually, because we are talking about privately owned guns in people's homes. The numbers add up, as they say.

Corellation doesn't equal causation.... There are other studies (more recent) that refute those findings.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #183 on: January 23, 2007, 10:59:52 PM »
Of course the restrictions help. If Sweden didn't have the restrictions, gun crimes and suicides would go up.

As I said, suicide would mainly change by methods, not increase dramatically. Gun crimes might go up a little bit, yes, but on the other hand law abiding people would be able to defend themselves. More criminals would be shot, though, which I really can't be sorry about.

 ::)


I highly doubt gun crimes would only go up a little bit...but we're again going nowhere by debating about this again, and as odeon said before, we should just agree to disagree.

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #184 on: January 23, 2007, 11:13:19 PM »


I highly doubt gun crimes would only go up a little bit...

 This comment along with the notion that more guns= more crime have questionable psycological underpinnings. Stop and think about what you're saying for a second. This assumes that large portions of th human race simply lack convienient MEANS to commit murder but they are all possesed of the MOTIVE and WILL to commit murder. What you are saying QC (and odeon) is that the average man (or at least a large minority of them) is a scoundrel. This stretches beyond imagination. Both of you are giving the human race undue contempt.

I have a hard time valuing an opinion which holds the human spirit with such disreguard.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #185 on: January 24, 2007, 01:18:26 AM »


I highly doubt gun crimes would only go up a little bit...

 This comment along with the notion that more guns= more crime have questionable psycological underpinnings. Stop and think about what you're saying for a second. This assumes that large portions of th human race simply lack convienient MEANS to commit murder but they are all possesed of the MOTIVE and WILL to commit murder. What you are saying QC (and odeon) is that the average man (or at least a large minority of them) is a scoundrel. This stretches beyond imagination. Both of you are giving the human race undue contempt.

I have a hard time valuing an opinion which holds the human spirit with such disreguard.

I have a hard time valuing the opinion of someone who feels so strongly about a murder weapon and speaks condescendingly to anyone who doesn't.

Offline odeon

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2007, 01:43:41 AM »
Both of you are giving the human race undue contempt.

No, just you and Lit.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline parrottesgirl

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2007, 01:45:46 AM »
Questionable pschological underpinnings? oh please! :violin: This comment means exactly what it says. The more guns there are available to people the more people are apt to use them. It's common sense. You're telling me, if you were told that it is no longer against the law to murder someone and you are free to do so as you please, you wouldn't go out and kill the man that sold cocaine to your daughter? What about the guy that raped your sister? If pot was legal you, your friends, and a million other people wouldn't be purchasing a lot more a lot easier? And maybe selling it to more kids? Of course you would. It's the way we are. If my neighbor knew he could go to the five and dime (for example) and buy a semi automatic legally he might decide it's worth the drive to another town and kill his friend for whatever reason. The chances of him getting caught in another town (assuming he wasn't identified) are a lot less. He bought the gun legally and wasn't seen near the victim at the time of death. If everyone bought guns like this so easily it could have been anyone.  It's not necessarily about motive or will rather it could be about reasoning. Use yours.  

Offline odeon

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2007, 01:50:59 AM »
It's the way we are.

It's the way you are, maybe.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline parrottesgirl

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #189 on: January 24, 2007, 01:56:27 AM »
No, actually it's not. And my reply was in defense to you and QC's comments, not on the offense, as you suggest. I am against guns but merely stating they way the world works.

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #190 on: January 24, 2007, 01:57:19 AM »
Questionable pschological underpinnings? oh please! :violin: This comment means exactly what it says. The more guns there are available to people the more people are apt to use them. It's common sense. You're telling me, if you were told that it is no longer against the law to murder someone and you are free to do so as you please, you wouldn't go out and kill the man that sold cocaine to your daughter? What about the guy that raped your sister? If pot was legal you, your friends, and a million other people wouldn't be purchasing a lot more a lot easier? And maybe selling it to more kids? Of course you would. It's the way we are. If my neighbor knew he could go to the five and dime (for example) and buy a semi automatic legally he might decide it's worth the drive to another town and kill his friend for whatever reason. The chances of him getting caught in another town (assuming he wasn't identified) are a lot less. He bought the gun legally and wasn't seen near the victim at the time of death. If everyone bought guns like this so easily it could have been anyone.  It's not necessarily about motive or will rather it could be about reasoning. Use yours. 

Good points. Litigious himself said that the US (where it's very easy to get guns, for the most part) has a lot more gun related crimes than Sweden, where it is very difficult to get a gun. Obviously, the more guns there are, the more gun related crimes there will be.

Offline odeon

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #191 on: January 24, 2007, 01:58:14 AM »
No, actually it's not. And my reply was in defense to you and QC's comments, not on the offense, as you suggest. I am against guns but merely stating they way the world works.

Sorry, I misread your post.  :-\
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #192 on: January 24, 2007, 02:01:17 AM »
Good points. Litigious himself said that the US (where it's very easy to get guns, for the most part) has a lot more gun related crimes than Sweden, where it is very difficult to get a gun. Obviously, the more guns there are, the more gun related crimes there will be.

It would seem to be an obvious conclusion...
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline parrottesgirl

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #193 on: January 24, 2007, 02:01:26 AM »
No problem. Being Aspie can sometimes make things more difficult to interpret. As an Aspie myself, I can relate.  :eyebrows:

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Re: Student with AS Fatally Stabs Another Student
« Reply #194 on: January 24, 2007, 07:19:00 AM »
No, because you're arguing for a cause that you know is wrong, deep down.

Actually, no.

Quote from: odeon
Another one of your moronic conclusions. I didn't look up your numbers because I was working on my laptop with a relatively tiny screen and a slow connection, but also because they don't actually make a difference. They don't validate your point, at all. What's sad is that you don't see it.

1) My stance against guns has very little to do with what almost happened to my sister. 2) Fewer guns means fewer gun-related crimes. More gun restrictions means fewer gun-related violence. There are many studies that prove this, among them the Harvard study I quoted. 3) Actually, deaths related to cars, tobacco, etc bother me a lot but they belong to another discussion. Are you saying that if you were a doctor, you'd only treat the epidemics? 4) I'd like you to explain your views on freedom and your right to guns to the parents and relatives for the twelve students and one teachers that died in the Columbine massacre.

1) OK. That would otherwise have been a very plausible explanation.

2) But there will still a price to be paid: More unarmed citizens killed or wounded by illegally armed criminals. There is always a price to be paid, but you seem to be comfortable with the law abiding, decent people paying it rather than the criminals. Actually almost 30000 people are killed by guns yearly in the US, but 19000 of them are criminals, killing each other or being killed by the police or law abiding people shooting in self-defense. So in the US more criminals than decent people are killed by guns. In Sweden it's the opposite, since most killed by guns are people committing suicide with a legally owned gun.

3) No, but I say that if fat food causes 30-40 times more deaths than guns, it should be as restricted or even more. That puts it in the right--absurd--perspective. Give me a reason why it shouldn't. Fat food isn't made to kill people but it does and anybody knows it.

4) Sure. It's a precious right to keep and bear arms. Bringing a gun into a school is a crime, even in the US. Killing people on random is first degree murder. It has nothing to do with guns. They could have killed people with axes or machetes, though not as many, but they broke against the fundamental law that it's wrong to kill other than in self-defense. And everybody is responsible for his/her actions, in Sweden from 15 years of age, in anglosaxon countries often even earlier.

Quote from: odeon
Btw, a technicality, the "law-abiding" people in Sweden wanting to "protect" themselves with guns stop being law-abiding the second they get those guns. Thankfully.

What are you talking about? You can have a gun if you have a license, it's just that a license for a pistol is extremely hard to get, and you're not allowed to carry the gun in public. But you can own a gun legally and keep it in your home. If you use it in self-defense, it's up to the court to decide whether it was self-defense or not. But since Swedish legislators, judges and jury people usually are pussies and cowards, who don't live in the real world, it might very well be you ending up in jail for killing, hurting or just scaring the poor burglar. Alas.

Quote from: odeon
Oh, and btw, did you or did you not ever come face to face with an armed criminal?

No, not myself and not an armed criminal, but I know a rape victim that still is being harassed by the rapist, after that the Swedish "justice" made him pay about $3000 for raping a (then) 13 year old. That was his only "punishment" for destroying a child. And he was 10 years older, so he wasn't too young for a real punishment. The police can't/won't stop him, since he hasn't raped or committed a crime of violence again since. That victim actually wants a gun for self protection but is too young to have one, and it would anyway take 2 years(!) to get a license to have a pistol in your home according to the local shooting club. Hail the Divine Swedish Justice! Hail! ::)

Quote from: odeon
Those percentages make perfect sense, actually, because we are talking about privately owned guns in people's homes. The numbers add up, as they say. And there's more in that study. A lot more. The problem here is that you don't understand, or you don't want to understand.

No, illegal guns are up to the police to stop. N.Y.C. has even harsher (local) gun laws than Sweden but much higher crime rates with guns...The question is: Do legal access to guns make the crime rate with guns raise dramatically? Have there been any "Columbines" in Vermont, where guns are totally free? No.