"We need new ways of treating depression"

[El]

It's weird that grief and sorrow is treated as depression so quickly.

Doing theology we did get a bit of psychology and someone working at a psychiatric hospital filled us in on some severe conditions.

But, what we learned was how to deal with grief, with sorrow, with sadness. And we learned to look for signals that people changed from sorrow, grief, sadness to a kind of mental getting stuck in the process. We were told that was the time to advice people to go and see a doctor.

Nothing unhealthy in grieving, sorrow, sadness.

Weird that from the medical point of view that is seen so different.

Grief, sorrow, and sadness can still be disabling to people's lives. Know someone who took meds short term after a spouse death. They were still grief stricken, but it allowed them time to get their life back on track without crying uncontrollably all day. Sometimes there simply is no cow.

Also, if you see a therapist for grief, they need to pathologize it (aka diagnose it) to bill for it.  So, we put it down as a disorder even when it's not, because it's that or ask people to pay out of pocket, which isn't doable for most people.

[odeon]

Exactly who is supposed to be responsible for metaphorically getting these people a cow?

Metaphorically, society. The one that is currently prescribing pills.

So then doctors? Society isn't very exact; it does imply the general public should pick up the tab, which is all well and good.

I think the general public should, at least in any country with universal healthcare. It makes sense to me - the idea is to help return a productive member of society, not to push pills. A healthy population is a good thing in so many ways.

But I doubt that kind of village think will become widely accepted just yet.

Is it a bad thing that I don't want to be personally responsible for this other than my tax dollars?

Probably nowhere near as bad as the fact that I feel that way a lot of days too, and it's literally my job.   

god I need a vacation

Handed out any cows lately?

[renaeden]

And yes, I don’t know anyone who has ever taken anti-depressants who wasn’t still depressed.

I will honestly say I've seen people experience quite a bit of relief from antidepressants that they otherwise were never going to get; in many cases that relief is probably life-saving, even if it's not a complete solution by itself.  They're just not a one-size-fits-all panacea.

I have been on lots of different antidepressants and have to say that currently I'm on one that works for me. I'm surprised because I'm under a bit of stress lately but I'm not depressed by it - I would have been in the past.

[Lestat]

Glad to hear that you've found something that works for you Elle. Does that mean I can take this quarter mile of wrapping paper back to the shop for a refund? Not quite sure what I'm going to do with a cow though...there aren't really very many home uses for a cow that don't involve a frying pan, some  smoked chili pepper, shiitake mushrooms, some fly agaric and other seasonings and a distinct lack of any mooing noises.

And I wasn't right sure  on how I was going to send a wrapped up cow in the post either, would  be rather difficult to fit through the letterbox.

[Lestat]

And  my more serious response to Elle:

With respect to the pathologizing aspect of  grief counseling
 in order to get the funding for your patients, I don't know if you do already or not, but if not, why not tell them this, straight up to them, it might help make  them feel less 'medicalized' and thrown through a system, with the stress factors that will come with just becoming a 'part of the medical system' etc.

That make sense to you? or do you already do it? because if not, giving them a direct up front explanation like that, I could really see it making some people feel better about their situation. And it'd be a step towards that 'village thinking' outlook IMO.

[Jack]

Exactly who is supposed to be responsible for metaphorically getting these people a cow?

Metaphorically, society. The one that is currently prescribing pills.

So then doctors? Society isn't very exact; it does imply the general public should pick up the tab, which is all well and good.

I think the general public should, at least in any country with universal healthcare. It makes sense to me - the idea is to help return a productive member of society, not to push pills. A healthy population is a good thing in so many ways.

But I doubt that kind of village think will become widely accepted just yet.

Is it a bad thing that I don't want to be personally responsible for this other than my tax dollars?

Probably nowhere near as bad as the fact that I feel that way a lot of days too, and it's literally my job.   

god I need a vacation

Are you expected to get cows for people? Maybe am misunderstanding the articles' expectations when it comes to things like helping people obtain better jobs and housing, or improving whatever is making them unhappy. Active involvement in changing  someone's circumstances seems very different than helping them to develop coping mechanism and psychological tools needed to change their own lives. It seems inappropriate, and too much to expect from mental healthcare.

[Lestat]

Well that was a village in some third world country, no? a cow there would be a whole 'nother kettle of fish compared to having somebody go to the shrink and take a prescription back to the pharmacy, then to be led out of the back and into a fenced  in grass pasture.

Psychologically, obviously 1st-world decent countries aren't desperately short of cows, and neither does your average household have the means to look after a cow.

Helping to give  someone the tools to change their own life, and if still needed regardless, then further support, yes, it would be a good thing IF it could be implemented. But where there is poor awareness, underfunding, sometimes discrimination and prejudice. Anything done also needs oversight, to stop the likes of all the damn muslim immigrants flooding countries like england and the rest of GB as well as the EU coming over  to sponge and to bleed us for  all they can grub out of the system with their mucky little trotters. There are always going to be no shortfall of shithead spongers who are out to game the system, and when active life-circumstances start to be on the menu of availability (although I do realize some people do need help), its then that the spongers will come, especially the foreigners, demanding NHS treatment and using it as a backdoor to sneak into the country on 'medical grounds' (doctor, doctor, I've a severe allergy to bacon....I need the NHS to fund treatment, or I'll die, oh noez!'.....*doctor 'it will be if you don't get the fuck out of my surgery you greedy allah-bashing, blood-sucking burka parasite*

[Jack]

Well that was a village in some third world country, no?

The suicide rate of Cambodia isn't anything remarkable, so it's entirely possible an anecdotal story might not really say a great deal about how their country's culture manages depression.

[El]

Exactly who is supposed to be responsible for metaphorically getting these people a cow?

Metaphorically, society. The one that is currently prescribing pills.

So then doctors? Society isn't very exact; it does imply the general public should pick up the tab, which is all well and good.

I think the general public should, at least in any country with universal healthcare. It makes sense to me - the idea is to help return a productive member of society, not to push pills. A healthy population is a good thing in so many ways.

But I doubt that kind of village think will become widely accepted just yet.

Is it a bad thing that I don't want to be personally responsible for this other than my tax dollars?

Probably nowhere near as bad as the fact that I feel that way a lot of days too, and it's literally my job.   

god I need a vacation

Handed out any cows lately?

Metaphorically.  I refer people to get help with job placement, I fill out forms to help people get benefits, that kind of thing.

And  my more serious response to Elle:

With respect to the pathologizing aspect of  grief counseling
 in order to get the funding for your patients, I don't know if you do already or not, but if not, why not tell them this, straight up to them, it might help make  them feel less 'medicalized' and thrown through a system, with the stress factors that will come with just becoming a 'part of the medical system' etc.

That make sense to you? or do you already do it? because if not, giving them a direct up front explanation like that, I could really see it making some people feel better about their situation. And it'd be a step towards that 'village thinking' outlook IMO.

Thanks for the mansplain, Lestat, but of fucking course I do, if it even comes up.   

With grief, it's usually normalizing, and managing expectations.  Some talk about coping skills, but often not even that.  Our society is very stupid about grief.  It's not even something to "fix" in the first place.  You lose someone you love, it hurts like hell, for a long time, in a lot of ways, and that's a part of being a human being.  It's very rare that clients come to me "just" about grief, and they're rarely long-term clients if that's really all they need help with.

[Tequila]

We don't need drugs. We need a society worth living in. Which we have never had.

[odeon]

Who's "we"?

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-06-17/cambodia-suffers-appalling-mental-health-crisis


In 2012, in a first attempt to define the scope of Cambodia’s mental health crisis, the Royal University of Phnom Penh interviewed 2,600 people. More than 27 percent showed acute anxiety, and 16.7 percent suffered from depression.


The study estimated the suicide rate at 42.35 per 100,000 people. That would put Cambodia second only to Greenland in incidence of suicides.



So Cambodia might not have been the best example.

The figures are hardly surprising given the scale of the atrocities committed within living memory for many Cambodians.

[odeon]

The country as such might not be, no, but the method has merit.

[Tequila]

Who's "we"?

Us all. Much medication is merely burying the real problems and dulling the senses.

We wouldn't be depressed if we weren't all dulled to the eyeballs.

[Tequila]

]I have been on lots of different antidepressants and have to say that currently I'm on one that works for me. I'm surprised because I'm under a bit of stress lately but I'm not depressed by it - I would have been in the past.

I cannot assert strongly enough how much better I feel not taking ridiculous mind-numbing 'antidepressants' and 'antipsychotics', although I obviously feel nowhere remotely near how fit and well I should be. Anti-D's mask any problem at best, meaning you are not at your true state. It's misery visited upon millions by pharmaceutical corporations and Big Government. It has to end.