Happy Canadian Thanksgiving!

[odeon]

Here's me with subtitles. 

   
I'm not wearing pants.

 

[Phoenix]

Here's me with subtitles. 

   
I'm not wearing pants.

 

I laughed so hard I cried.

[Lestat]

He needed the subtitles-now even deaf people can bluntly ignore him

[Yuri Bezmenov]

In what ways is the bill so badly crafted it'll produce the opposite results?

Because it was crafted by radicals who claim to speak for the whole transgender community when they actually don't. They have effectively criminalized rude behavior which can be very subjective. Since this kind of harassment is usually a he-said-she-said situation, then the accusation of a crime becomes the evidence for the crime. This gives power to bad actors who will abuse their power when given the opportunity. This have a very chilling effect on society because it turns the protected group into land mines that must be avoided. People who interact with the transgendered have no idea weather or not something they say or do will be misinterpreted in an uncharitable and possibly criminal manner.

 A very similar thing happened when I was in the Marines. I joined just after the Tailhook scandal and there was an active crusade to punish sexual harassment. This empowered dishonest women to use the threat of sexual harassment charges as club to beat anyone who dared to stand up to them. There were several in my company, they ended up in corner offices where nobody would talk to them or interact with them if they could avoid it, they simply didn't want to risk a Court Martial.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bill C-16 has similar unintended consequences.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

In what ways is the bill so badly crafted it'll produce the opposite results?

If it's badly crafted, then it was badly crafted in the first place. All they did is take existing human rights legislation and add the words: gender identity or expression, to the already established list of prohibited grounds for discrimination. That's all they did, add for words to what was already there.

http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-16/first-reading

This isn't the full text of the bill, Jordan Peterson talks about specific parts of it not listed here.

[Jack]

In what ways is the bill so badly crafted it'll produce the opposite results?

If it's badly crafted, then it was badly crafted in the first place. All they did is take existing human rights legislation and add the words: gender identity or expression, to the already established list of prohibited grounds for discrimination. That's all they did, add for words to what was already there.

http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-16/first-reading

This isn't the full text of the bill, Jordan Peterson talks about specific parts of it not listed here.

To my knowledge, the Royal Assent tab of that page is in fact the finalized full text of the bill. Gender identity has been included to the protections against discrimination and hate propaganda, and grounds for stricter penalties as a criminal motive. People can say whatever they think to interpret the impact of that, but it will take time and the setting of legal precedents for Canadian society to truly understand what that means.

[Lestat]

Never heard of operation tailhook, but there is a similar situation here in a way, although the target is different.

Basically its making teaching less popular as a job, guys in particular, (at nursery/primary/secondary level), because the mere accusation of being a nonce, even if somebody is genuinely innocent oof having done anything of the kind, they still get dragged through the courts, their names still get outed when arrested or charged, before they have been to court and cleared their name, so even if they are found innocent, the accusation alone is enough to destroy their careers and family lives; which means immature and impetuous children who have a child's temper and volatility are suddenly handed enough power to utterly destroy a man's life with just a few words if they feel pissed off at them for for example, imposing discipline.

It takes just one brat to be vengeful and to realize they can use the accusation of being a nonce to smite their teachers, when otherwise they would have no power whatsoever to do anything more than call them petty names, shout and stamp their feet, suddenly handed a weapon  they  can use with impunity to actually have those responsible for angering the removed from the school and destroyed.

Whilst a woman might have a chance, at ending up, if cleared of all charges publicly, of garnering public sympathy and reconstructing their lives and maybe even jobs, but if a male teacher is buggered. They face trial by public media regardless of guilt or innocence  and being male, the scales are weighed heavily against a man faced with such accusations, in both courts-the actual legal court, if charged, and whether charged or not, the media court.

As a result men are less willing than they otherwise would be to apply for teaching posts because of the fear of being crucified because some little scrote got into a temper and made a vexatious report of being sexually abused (even just slapped about, in a non-sexual manner in the case of children who aren't aware enough of such matters to make a sexually oriented complaint), just as Kek said, turning the situation into a minefield, and one where the placement of the landmines changes  with every lesson taught and you have no way to know what the trigger will be or when one might just go off spontaneously.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Never heard of operation tailhook, but there is a similar situation here in a way, although the target is different.

It wasn't an operation, it was an annual meeting of Navy and Marine Corps aircraft carrier pilots (hence the name Tailhook).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal

[Pyraxis]

In what ways is the bill so badly crafted it'll produce the opposite results?

Because it was crafted by radicals who claim to speak for the whole transgender community when they actually don't. They have effectively criminalized rude behavior which can be very subjective. Since this kind of harassment is usually a he-said-she-said situation, then the accusation of a crime becomes the evidence for the crime. This gives power to bad actors who will abuse their power when given the opportunity. This have a very chilling effect on society because it turns the protected group into land mines that must be avoided. People who interact with the transgendered have no idea weather or not something they say or do will be misinterpreted in an uncharitable and possibly criminal manner.

 A very similar thing happened when I was in the Marines. I joined just after the Tailhook scandal and there was an active crusade to punish sexual harassment. This empowered dishonest women to use the threat of sexual harassment charges as club to beat anyone who dared to stand up to them. There were several in my company, they ended up in corner offices where nobody would talk to them or interact with them if they could avoid it, they simply didn't want to risk a Court Martial.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Bill C-16 has similar unintended consequences.

False accusations are a serious issue.

But what you said in the first paragraph could just as easily be applied to any of the older human rights protected classes, like race. Making it into hate propaganda to call someone a nigger could be said to be criminalizing rude behavior, giving power to bad actors who will abuse it, and having a chillling effect on society. (The society of last century that was badly segregated by race.) The only difference with transgender protections is that they're newer, so society as a whole isn't used to them yet and people don't always know how to act. It's no more complicated to keep track of gender pronouns than it is to keep track of the latest politically correct term for a minority. (Native Americans? American Indians? Brown people?) Which is to say that you may not always know, but there are also contexts where it's more important than others and eventually a common lingo is adopted. At the moment the list of potential transgender pronouns may seem ludicrous, but how many of them will actually reach common usage? Only a few at most, it'll still be okay to default to "they" in situations where you're unsure. And by okay, I don't mean that snowflakes on Tumblr won't rant about it, but that people won't get convicted of lawbreaking over it.

The chilling effect on society is temporary and eventually stabilizes out into a fairer balance. Before the protections, there was still power in the hands of bad actors who were indeed abusing it. That's why the call for protections came in the first place. Opportunists bring in false accusations when the power balance starts to shift, but not every accusation is false. He said, she said - yes - but that doesn't mean the power should default to him, any more than it should default to her. With time, everyone gets a better understanding of the issues involved, and there can be a more nuanced response to accusations that better separates out the false accusations from the people who were too scared to come forward before. As people understand better what can happen and why, and some level of protection is established, the stigma against coming forward decreases and so does the opportunity for ill-gotten gain.

[Gopher Gary]

It's no more complicated to keep track of gender pronouns than it is to keep track of the latest politically correct term for a minority. (Native Americans? American Indians? Brown people?)

It's indigenous peoples, thank you very much. 

[Pyraxis]

Not Aboriginal peoples or First Nations? 

[renaeden]

In Australia we have Aboriginal people (also indigenous Australians), so you can't pick that.

[Phoenix]

In Canada, Aboriginal or First Nations are preferred but we (as in Native people, of which I am one) are okay with Native as well.

[Pyraxis]

Is it indigenous peoples in the USA?

["couldbecousin"]

Is it indigenous peoples in the USA?

  Lately I mostly hear "Native American," though some use the term "NDN," as shorthand for "Indian."
   The latter term is common on a site I visit that discusses fake Indians, apparently a flourishing market.