The Tragedy in Las Vegas

[El]

Why on earth woudln't you link them?

Because it wasn't read recently and didn't feel like looking it up. Crime has been a personal interest for about 25 years. Here's some links.

http://journals.lww.com/psychosomaticmedicine/Abstract/1987/03000/Saliva_testosterone_and_criminal_violence_in_young.7.aspx
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886988900888
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/019188699400177T
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.1990.tb00200.x

An immediate question that came to mind when the articles were described, that still remains unanswered for me, is the question of what causes elevated testosterone.  The last article at least touches on that, as well as the effect of nature vs nurture, even if we were to assume testosterone is always at a constant in individuals (I don't assume that).

Last article still supports the "be better as a society" solution.

[Jack]

Why on earth woudln't you link them?

Because it wasn't read recently and didn't feel like looking it up. Crime has been a personal interest for about 25 years. Here's some links.

http://journals.lww.com/psychosomaticmedicine/Abstract/1987/03000/Saliva_testosterone_and_criminal_violence_in_young.7.aspx
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0191886988900888
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/019188699400177T
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.1990.tb00200.x

An immediate question that came to mind when the articles were described, that still remains unanswered for me, is the question of what causes elevated testosterone.  The last article at least touches on that, as well as the effect of nature vs nurture, even if we were to assume testosterone is always at a constant in individuals (I don't assume that).

Last article still supports the "be better as a society" solution.

Not really certain if the last article touches on the cause elevation, but rather notes that the correlation between testosterone and delinquency is less evident in educated wealthy people. That particular study isn't a good example for a link to violence, as now seeing it's not clear what portion of 'delinquency' is violence, if at all. Here's a better version of that one. http://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1175&context=psych_facpub  Though as for causes for changes in testosterone levels, have read being married can lower it and being recently divorced can make it rise. Age is also a factor for testosterone levels. Age was the reason for blaming the baby boomers before.

The sociological factors are very interesting to consider. US homicide rates differ dramatically by age, with the highest rates among ages 20-30. Homicide drops dramatically at age 40, and at that same age suicide rates begin to take over, with adults 45-60 equally suicidal as the young are murderous. While homicide has dramatically decreased to less than half the rates in 1990, US suicide rates have seen similar dramatic increase over the past two decades. When considering age, one could contemplate the young adult generation after then end of the Vietnam war and the age they are now today, and conclude the baby boomers are a sociologically damaged generation.

It's easy to look at US homicide rates over time, and wonder what happened from 1970 to 1990, and easy to look at suicide rates for the last fifteen years and wonder what is happening now. It's doesn't seem so difficult to understand when one considers who are these people.

[Jack]

That particular study isn't a good example for a link to violence

Was thinking the conversation was over so didn't take the time to find good links. Here's a couple of full text papers, one study and one peer review, related to the possible combination of testosterone and serotonin. The study is a primate study; the combined topic isn't easy to find for open access. Studies linking testosterone and violence generally focus on violent people, so while it seems clear violent people have high testosterone, what isn't clear is why some people with high testosterone are violent. In addition to what makes testosterone high, another question is what makes serotonin low.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/54/27288.pdf
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(95)00675-3/pdf

The point of socioeconomic status in the other link is also a point difficult for me to get away from. It's common for race to come up in violent crime discussions, but the bottom line of violent crime statistics is gender, and the next to the bottom line is poverty. There aren't many reliably sourced statistics for violent crime by race and income, but they do show that violence has no racial preference when it comes to being poor. There isn't much information available to discuss if poverty may affect serotonin, or if people with low serotonin simply more likely to fail to achieve.

[El]

That particular study isn't a good example for a link to violence

Was thinking the conversation was over so didn't take the time to find good links. Here's a couple of full text papers, one study and one peer review, related to the possible combination of testosterone and serotonin. The study is a primate study; the combined topic isn't easy to find for open access. Studies linking testosterone and violence generally focus on violent people, so while it seems clear violent people have high testosterone, what isn't clear is why some people with high testosterone are violent. In addition to what makes testosterone high, another question is what makes serotonin low.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/54/27288.pdf
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(95)00675-3/pdf

The point of socioeconomic status in the other link is also a point difficult for me to get away from. It's common for race to come up in violent crime discussions, but the bottom line of violent crime statistics is gender, and the next to the bottom line is poverty. There aren't many reliably sourced statistics for violent crime by race and income, but they do show that violence has no racial preference when it comes to being poor. There isn't much information available to discuss if poverty may affect serotonin, or if people with low serotonin simply more likely to fail to achieve.

Yeah, I'm not exactly seeing evidence to advocate any kind of minority report/eugenics reaction to testosterone or serotonin levels.  What I'm seeing is "there's something there; it's complex."

Poverty is a constant stressor to experience (IMO it's inherently traumatic, and I'm not alone in thinking that), and it creates a higher risk of a lot of other traumas, with fewer resources to recover.  I don't think it's an either/or with mental illness and poverty- people who are mentally ill are more likely to *become* poor, but anything with a diathesis-stress component is more likely to express under stress, and poor people typically have access to fewer resources to get help.

[Lestat]

Elle-I agree with a lot of those point. Although IMO not with the statement that people with mental illneses are not somehow more likely to end up in poverty as a result. IMO those who are either mentally ill or mentally handicapped ARE more likely to be poor as a result, due to less ability (possibly, and of course depennding on the individual and nature of their issues,) but also much more likely not to be able to find work in the first place, especially if the disability is one of those which makes an individual evidently 'different' than the herd. With physical disabilities employers will bend over backwards to accommodate the disabled person,and there are a lot of laws granting physically disabled people protection in that respect, ostensibly doing so also for those with mental issues, but in their cases it seems a lot more likely to 'just not work out' that way.

[Jack]

That particular study isn't a good example for a link to violence

Was thinking the conversation was over so didn't take the time to find good links. Here's a couple of full text papers, one study and one peer review, related to the possible combination of testosterone and serotonin. The study is a primate study; the combined topic isn't easy to find for open access. Studies linking testosterone and violence generally focus on violent people, so while it seems clear violent people have high testosterone, what isn't clear is why some people with high testosterone are violent. In addition to what makes testosterone high, another question is what makes serotonin low.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/54/27288.pdf
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(95)00675-3/pdf

The point of socioeconomic status in the other link is also a point difficult for me to get away from. It's common for race to come up in violent crime discussions, but the bottom line of violent crime statistics is gender, and the next to the bottom line is poverty. There aren't many reliably sourced statistics for violent crime by race and income, but they do show that violence has no racial preference when it comes to being poor. There isn't much information available to discuss if poverty may affect serotonin, or if people with low serotonin simply more likely to fail to achieve.

Yeah, I'm not exactly seeing evidence to advocate any kind of minority report/eugenics reaction to testosterone or serotonin levels.  What I'm seeing is "there's something there; it's complex."

Poverty is a constant stressor to experience (IMO it's inherently traumatic, and I'm not alone in thinking that), and it creates a higher risk of a lot of other traumas, with fewer resources to recover.  I don't think it's an either/or with mental illness and poverty- people who are mentally ill are more likely to *become* poor, but anything with a diathesis-stress component is more likely to express under stress, and poor people typically have access to fewer resources to get help.

Yes, eugenics would be pushing it a bit, I just think society would benefit if they were drugged as standard course of action. It doesn't have to be anything unconventional related to this discussion. There's already drugs known to reduce violent aggression. That's not to say violent people shouldn't be jailed too. Though there doesn't seem much point to letting them back out without even some semblance of attempting to treat their symptom.

[Lestat]

Also, it is a gross oversimplification of things just to look at levels of one or more neurotransmitters and assign values such as 'low' or 'high' (outside of quite obviously pathological such as neurotransmitter/hormone-secreting tumors like phaeochromocytomas [a type of adrenal gland tumor which secretes massive, potentially fatal levels of noradrenaline, causing very high blood pressure and heart rate, can lead to strokes for example, and  additionally in this particular case can tie into violence, with people ending up having hair-trigger tempers, or believing themselves in danger due to the constant fight-or-flight response caused by a phaeochromocytoma]

Things such as overall neurological architecture, sensitivities of receptors in synapses, distribution and trafficking of neuron types, (this is often altered in many neurological diseases of genetic origin, where the neurons meant to migrate to a particular area fail to get the full way, or are altered in performance, are of altered morphology etc,) are a lot more important than simplistic interpretations such as 'has low/high XYZ'. And not only that, but the same neurotransmitter can and usually does do different things in different areas of the brain. For example dopamine, a catecholamine neurotransmitter; is responsible for both inhibitory control over movement in the area of the brain known as the substantia nigra, located, along with the striatum, in the nigro-striatal tract, here DA blocks spurious movement signalling and allows conscious, voluntary movement to be fluid and to proceed as it should (impairment hear is a prototypical feature of parkinson's disease) whereas DA signalling in the prefrontal cortex is strongly associated with attention and focus, whilst within the nucleus accumbens (you could, crudely, think of this area as a 'pleasure center', in a manner of speaking) is associated with rewarding and highly reinforcing effects. Many, perhaps even most, of the drugs of abuse having addictive properties such as cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, methylphenidate/ritalin, these cause large releases of DA within the nucleus accumbens.

So simple neurotransmitter levels don't tell the whole story, in fact they usually don't tell you very much at all, the WHEN, the WHY and critically, the WHERE are far more important.

[DirtDawg]

Shit!
Fifteen pages on this already. Doubt there are any posts associated with helping the families of the fallen.

I will have to read some to know how to respond in my opinion.

I will say this on the outset. without reading it all:  I am a gun owner. I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I do. None of that would have mattered in this case.

They want more strict gun laws, but from what I have read, this guy had bought legal weapons over a period of many years.
Now I will concede that a two hundred round drum magazine is not necessary.

I own a number of hunting weapons and I hunt for deer when I can but to be most honest, as a hunter tracking a live prey animal, I will probably only get ONE SHOT when it is time to shoot. It would be VERY rare to take a shot and miss and have the opportunity to take another shot. Most of my hunting rifles are five shot. I do have several that are single shot. As I said, hunting, you only rarely get one shot; forget needing a thirty round magazine.

Now all that sporting shit aside, I used to hunt for bounty on coyotes which were ravaging cattle ranches. I often had a twenty round magazine in my rifle, but again, I only rarely had a chance to shoot more than two or three rounds, even with a whole pack of predators in my sites.

[El]

That particular study isn't a good example for a link to violence

Was thinking the conversation was over so didn't take the time to find good links. Here's a couple of full text papers, one study and one peer review, related to the possible combination of testosterone and serotonin. The study is a primate study; the combined topic isn't easy to find for open access. Studies linking testosterone and violence generally focus on violent people, so while it seems clear violent people have high testosterone, what isn't clear is why some people with high testosterone are violent. In addition to what makes testosterone high, another question is what makes serotonin low.

https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUpload/IMAJ/0/54/27288.pdf
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(95)00675-3/pdf

The point of socioeconomic status in the other link is also a point difficult for me to get away from. It's common for race to come up in violent crime discussions, but the bottom line of violent crime statistics is gender, and the next to the bottom line is poverty. There aren't many reliably sourced statistics for violent crime by race and income, but they do show that violence has no racial preference when it comes to being poor. There isn't much information available to discuss if poverty may affect serotonin, or if people with low serotonin simply more likely to fail to achieve.

Yeah, I'm not exactly seeing evidence to advocate any kind of minority report/eugenics reaction to testosterone or serotonin levels.  What I'm seeing is "there's something there; it's complex."

Poverty is a constant stressor to experience (IMO it's inherently traumatic, and I'm not alone in thinking that), and it creates a higher risk of a lot of other traumas, with fewer resources to recover.  I don't think it's an either/or with mental illness and poverty- people who are mentally ill are more likely to *become* poor, but anything with a diathesis-stress component is more likely to express under stress, and poor people typically have access to fewer resources to get help.

Yes, eugenics would be pushing it a bit, I just think society would benefit if they were drugged as standard course of action. It doesn't have to be anything unconventional related to this discussion. There's already drugs known to reduce violent aggression. That's not to say violent people shouldn't be jailed too. Though there doesn't seem much point to letting them back out without even some semblance of attempting to treat their symptom.

No way that wouldn't end up accidentally killing some prisoners, though.

And, they do give some prisoners headmeds.

[Lestat]

Absolutely it would Elle. And medical care is both piss poor AND neglectful in the extreme. People are more likely to go without medical help than they are to get it by a long shot, even to the extent of having the essential medications they already took at the time of arrest, etc. knowingly and deliberately denied them.

[El]

Absolutely it would Elle. And medical care is both piss poor AND neglectful in the extreme. People are more likely to go without medical help than they are to get it by a long shot, even to the extent of having the essential medications they already took at the time of arrest, etc. knowingly and deliberately denied them.

Or given them improperly (ex. grinding up pills that aren't supposed to be ground up).

[Lestat]

IMO that just falls under negligence. It isn't really of much point to try to define WHAT prison medical care is negligent with, WHAT they do wrong or just don't do, its more a case of what DON'T they fuck up.

Although one particular thing that strikes me as both fucked up and potentially dangerous depending on what people are on is a blanket 'no medication given in the first 24 hours' I'm surprised they haven't inflicted that on a diabetic or heart patient and that it as of yet (that I know of at least) has not come to bite them on the arse, in the form of a corpse.

Although due to medical negligence they nearly did. Leaving somebody having severe seizures that ought to have been in the ICU in a proper hospital untreated and for that matter not even WATCHED for so long that they nearly starve to death because they were unable to even realize food is thrown onto the floor let alone stand...if that isn't fucking close to attempted murder I don't know what is.

[Jack]

No way that wouldn't end up accidentally killing some prisoners, though.

And, they do give some prisoners headmeds.

Do know some prisoners get meds; mentioned that previously. Not sure why it would kill them. It's standard practice to medically treat people who are a danger to themselves; see no reason why it should be different for those who are a danger to others.

[El]

No way that wouldn't end up accidentally killing some prisoners, though.

And, they do give some prisoners headmeds.

Do know some prisoners get meds; mentioned that previously. Not sure why it would kill them. It's standard practice to medically treat people who are a danger to themselves; see no reason why it should be different for those who are a danger to others.

Give literally everyone in every large-enough group the same medication, and at least one of those people will have an adverse reaction to that medication.

[Jack]

No way that wouldn't end up accidentally killing some prisoners, though.

And, they do give some prisoners headmeds.

Do know some prisoners get meds; mentioned that previously. Not sure why it would kill them. It's standard practice to medically treat people who are a danger to themselves; see no reason why it should be different for those who are a danger to others.

Give literally everyone in every large-enough group the same medication, and at least one of those people will have an adverse reaction to that medication.

The potential for adverse reaction is true for a lot of people conditions and medications. The adverse result of their violence seems clear enough. It wasn't a suggestion for a one stop answer for all dished out by a layman. It would be better to argue that criminal violence on its own doesn't qualify as a mental disorder and psychotropic drugs don't sit well with people who don't actually need them, than to suggest violent people shouldn't be routinely prescribed medications because someone might have an adverse reaction.