Author Topic: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2016, 10:16:21 PM »
You misunderstand me.
Fair enough. Similar to how some people have generalizing bigoted views about people who don't work, that post seemed to assign meaningless to those who do work, and also assign poor character traits to those who work for themselves. Thanks for explaining I clearly misunderstood half of that. Personally would rather work for myself, but the risk is too high and taxes in the US for the self-employed are much higher, because someone on a payroll has an employer contributing to their social security and medicare tax. Someone on a payroll also has an employer contributing half of their medical coverage, as well as completely providing some benefits like short term disability and life insurance, with the option to buy more coverage at nominal fees.
I'm sure most of us would much rather work for ourselves, and I certainly didn't intend to knock the people who try that. Though, sadly, that  often results in people working working insanely long hours for next--to-no -pay, doesn' it? in a flailing  effort to make a sucess of it at all. So I don't much like the kind of rhertoric that encourages people to start their own business if they can't get regular work That  might almost be designed to mjke the long journey down that bit more painful for people , and the "loser" taunt that little bit more stinging. People jump through all kinds of hoops, only to wind up no different, on the face of it,  from all the the other jobless bums. The blood, sweat and tears leave no visible trace.

My vitriol was directed at the real entrepreneurial vultures , the ones who measure up other people like cattle in a meat market, to work out how many pounds of meat  they can get before the corpse is stripped down to the bone.  I mean the kind of entrepreneurs  that the article I linked to was about. Also I really don't like how the "sucessful entrepreneur" is held up up as a model citizen , to be emulated.  We can't all be sucessful in those terms, not even if we want to be; and the business world  really is cut-throat, even at relatively humble levels.  Sucess without dishonesty , expluitation etc would be  insanely hard to achieve; so of course ,  the scum rises, just like they say. I'd rather have no part at all in that world and that value-system.

Nothing at all against working peopkle :)  just those who live off their backs; and who like to call that "work ".  And who really believe  that the money in their bank account reflects their value  as a citizen.  And against the political rhetoric that makes another  over-arching virtue of all that kind of thing.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:21:31 PM by Walkie »

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2016, 10:33:09 PM »
oH!  just to summarise the article I linked to:  it was about a group of bright-eyed bushy tailed entrepreneurial types drooling over the fact that the number of trailer parks that could  bulit in some parts of America have been capped; and working out that if they bought up the exiisting parks they could easily double the rents, or better, because the people living there have nowhere else to go.

Hopefully it's obvious why I find that contemptible?  And scary.

We have far too much of that sort of thing in England, already.  Wouldn't wish it on you Americans

« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 10:35:30 PM by Walkie »

Offline odeon

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2016, 10:31:24 AM »
Oh, I didn't feel forced to do anything. No worries. I just wondered what the difference was.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2016, 11:11:29 AM »
oH!  just to summarise the article I linked to:  it was about a group of bright-eyed bushy tailed entrepreneurial types drooling over the fact that the number of trailer parks that could  bulit in some parts of America have been capped; and working out that if they bought up the exiisting parks they could easily double the rents, or better, because the people living there have nowhere else to go.

Hopefully it's obvious why I find that contemptible?  And scary.

We have far too much of that sort of thing in England, already.  Wouldn't wish it on you Americans
Took the time to read the article and took away a slightly different impression. The mention of raising rent and renters having nowhere else to go came up twice. The first was related to a park tailored for sex offenders. It's true sex offenders have difficulty finding residence which meets the distance criteria for living away from schools and parks, however the point of rent was related to the current owner charging rates slightly below market value, so a prospective buyer would indeed consider market value when crunching numbers, and a new owner would have no obligation to maintain the property as a sex offender haven. The second mention was related to a buyer who did raise rent considerably after purchase, because the previous owner's rent was well below market value. It was also noted the new rent rate was still slightly below market value so they didn't lose any tennants, so it's not that the tenants had nowhere else to go, but rather nowhere cheaper. Property owners can be an easy target, whenever people believe they should be morally obligated to accept something less than the value of their property, or to care about the personal or financial problems of their renters.

Offline odeon

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2016, 02:28:21 PM »
Agreed. Why should the property owner subsidise the renters?
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Offline Jack

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2016, 08:34:34 PM »
Rental properties can be a risky investment, because it takes many years to get a full return on the investment and start turning a profit.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2016, 09:22:38 PM »
@Jack and Odeon. The main point of the article ( as I read it) was that the market price of these trailers was predicted to to go up, due to new limitations on building new trailer parks  , hence the onrush of interest. Very realistic prediction . Here in Britain, pioperty prices certainly get ever-higher due to exess of demand over supply, though the reasons are not the same  (and not altogether different either.  Property developers do delay new builds , to keep prices high).  Result is fewer and fewr people can afford to buy a home...nor really afford to rent one , since rents are proportionally high. Those prospective investors are looking to make a killing.

It seems we have very different ideas of what "subsidised " means?

eg, in Britain , Social housing (inasmuch as it still exists) is not what we would call "subsidised" but managed on a "not for profit" basis.  The Council or H.A. take enough in rent to cover all costs (cost of building/buying , administration , repairs, the lot ) . There are no private owners nor shareholders, is all.  Social housing is cheaper than private rental , but not by as much as people expect , if they imagine that it's  actually subsidised.

Some confusion might arise , siince the Govt introduced "right to buy";  you might say that it really is subsidised at point of sale , as the Council is constrained to sell at considerably less than calculated market value.  But that was never partt of  the original idea. It's something that was bolted on to a system that previously worked perfectly well.

Conversely , one might say (and we often do) that private rentals are "subsidised" through housing benefit. Housing benefit is available to people on low incomes  who couldn'tt otherwise afford to  pay the full rent  on  available  housing. Effectively, that money goes from taxpayer to landlord, so it's a subsidy to private industry , really , as are other top-up benefits. "In-work" benefits are  crituicised on those grounds; but as  those benefits have been available for decades now,  theyve enabled wages to fall well below subsistence level (which would have been the point of introducing those benefits) . And there you get another indirect subsidy to industry ofc (in this case, to the worker's  employer),  Also, as the Social Housing sector gets smaller (due to "right to buy") the privarte rental  sector becomes bigger and more lucrative. So conditions increasingly favour the landlords, who can, and will charge the most the can get away with(usually the maximum rent that housing benefit will normally cover...plus some extra on top of that for "risky" tenants. You therefore get a plateau at the bottom, beyond which rent drops no further,  no matter how bad the housing gets )  And it really does amount to wealthy  landlords getting getting richer, at the expense of people who are very much struggling, and also at the expense of the taxpayer.

I don't think that charging "less than market" is equivalent to subsidising, certainly not if the landlord can make a reasonable profit by doing so (which one would assume to be the case)  and especially not if the market value has  been artificially inflated. "Subsidising " in that context really  means "I could make more profit if I wanted to" . That might certainly be kind, but it's stretching the term "subsidy" past breaking point. . Of course, you  could call council housing "subsidised" by that defininiion , but iso long as you leave "right to Buy" out of it) it's a subsidy that nobody actually pays - not the government, not the council , not anybody. Nobody loses out, except for some hypothetical private individual  whio might otherwise make a profit from it.

So maybe Americans use that term "subsidfdised " in a totally different sense than we British do? :S.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 09:31:58 PM by Walkie »

Offline Jack

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2016, 10:19:47 PM »
The main point of the article ( as I read it) was that the market price of these trailers was predicted to to go up, due to new limitations on building new trailer parks
The article didn't mention new limitations on developing new trailer parks, but rather local authorities can be very reluctant to grant the development of new ones, which may or may not be new, or even true. The main point of an article can generally be found in the first few sentences. There's simply a higher demand for existing low priced housing in the current economy, and some motivational speaker is making big bucks off of seminars to teach other people how to invest in that. Now there's a slick entrepreneur. :laugh:

So maybe Americans use that term "subsidfdised " in a totally different sense than we British do? :S.
The American didn't mention subsidies, but from what's been written it seems very similar here. There are programs which property owners can apply to receive government funds and then rent at lower rates to low income, elderly and disabled. There's government owned public housing which individuals can apply, and also a housing voucher program for welfare recipients to use as rent payments outside of government housing.

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2016, 10:47:11 PM »
^  Ah. Ok :)
some motivational speaker is making big bucks off of seminars to teach other people how to invest in that. Now there's a slick entrepreneur. :laugh:
indeed!   :lol1:
Quote
The American didn't mention subsidies,

I saw a mention of "subsidised" British council housing snmewhere near the bottom . Apart from which , Odeon used the word:
Agreed. Why should the property owner subsidise the renters?
he isn't American, mind, is he? but I kinda  lumped him in, since he was supporting your argument  (possibly not very fair of me :LOL: ) And it saved the extra  faff of writing "Americans and Swedes"  (my little labour-saving ideas always seem to go pear -shaped like this *sigh*)

Quote
but from what's been written it seems very similar here. There are programs which property owners can apply to receive government funds and then rent at lower rates to low income, elderly and disabled. There's government owned public housing which individuals can apply, and also a housing voucher program for welfare recipients to use as rent payments outside of government housing.
sounds more complicated. but yeah:  various schemes for getting public money into landlord's pockets.   What bugs me about all that is that some people scream blue murder about poor people living off welfare, but they don't mind  so much when  the rich people do. It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord, but the right wing just don't like that idea for some reason.

Offline Jack

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2016, 11:08:00 PM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord,
The voucher program is a good idea, because it not only gives the recipient the option to live outside of government housing, but also takes care of people in areas where government or subsidized housing might not be readily available.

Offline odeon

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2016, 03:50:26 AM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord, but the right wing just don't like that idea for some reason.

Why would it be more cost-effective? 
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Jack

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2016, 08:51:59 AM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord, but the right wing just don't like that idea for some reason.

Why would it be more cost-effective?
Even if it were, it probably wouldn't matter, at least not here. Don't know about other places, but the US learned it's lesson in thinking government controlled housing projects were the end all solution to low income housing. Public housing projects segregated the poor within their community and created hot spots for crime, drugs, and gang activity. The federal government can also sometimes suck at managing things, and apparently real-estate is no exception. Many of the original large housing projects were torn down years ago, and some are still being torn down now because they fell so deeply into disrepair, so cost-effective probably not. Modern day public housing efforts are now peppered into the community, and rather than being government owned/operated, they're projects where the government is working in conjunction with local property developers by means of subsidy programs.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 09:41:47 AM by Jack »

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2016, 09:49:39 AM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord,
The voucher program is a good idea, because it not only gives the recipient the option to live outside of government housing, but also takes care of people in areas where government or subsidized housing might not be readily available.

Actually, that does sound good . You have to remember though that i'm speakling for a population that's hugely  resentful about our loss of social housing, and have found the alternative (in Britain, that is)  to be utterly awful in numerous respects. Not that we ever really liked the council estates  :LOL: there was a lot of room for improvemnent in what we used to have, but replacing it with (effectively) sunsidised private housing was by no means the solution , nor does it even imnprove those erstwhile council estates.  eg in cases  the housing was badly constructed and  riddled with damp, to the point that it should have ben condemned in the eightess, same housing is still standing, amostly still owned by the council ofc, and still occupied by underprivileged families, living in a srtate of hopelssness, engenderered by low wages, unemployment and bleak surroundings. Slum clearance has pretty mucvh ground to a halt . And where it still occurs, the old housing is replaced with non-affordable private housing, There's a princuiple that new builds must  must include  "affordable" housing, but that concept is relative, and irrelevant to slum-dwellers. We can now count ourselves "lucky" if we can get the worst housing  on those estates; most of most of us make do with bottom end of the private market, which is odten much worse, always mnore expensive,; and  maybe worst of all we're on  insecure short-tem tenancies , not the long rterm,  secure  tenancies that social housing offers... or  rather, it used to offer. I 've heard that's also changing, now, in the wake of Housing Bennefit reforms, which leave too many tenants unable to keep up with  their rent. . Not even the housing associations  are coming up with a better solution to that problem than eviction.

 I say "we" because I actually lived on one of those estates in the eighties, in  a misbegotten concrete tenmant that was so fucking ghastly that the residents were running round excitely, whooping for joy , when the rumour went round that it was going to be knocked down. Same building still stands. The surrounding housing (which is mostly considerably  better) has been patchily sold off, so the estate is now more mixed economically, but that doesn't amount to any sort of improvement for anyone.

You can perhaps, therefore understand my cynism , when presented with a pretty-sounding alternative, involving the private sector?  I think such schemes could amount to imnprovements , if sincerely motivated, sensibly managed, and designed to supplement, rather than displace Social Housing.    But what we;ve actually had , here in in Britain, is a sucession of trojan horses from a right-wing government who are clearly out to put as much public money and as much public property into private hands as possible, regardless of how much misery that causes.

That said, I can believe that things might actually be better in America, in many ways. So far as I can see, America  has  always  been structured round right-wing econonomic principles . Not good, IMO, but it seems to result in various institutionalised counterbalances  (eg by charities and local governments) which Britain lacks. I've often been surprised at how comparatively well -off the American poor are (in some ways, in siome places) Over here, we'ce been trained to  to be grateful for "not being born in America"  :LOL: as much as for  "not being born in  the third World"

 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 09:57:15 AM by Walkie »

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2016, 10:20:41 AM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord, but the right wing just don't like that idea for some reason.

Why would it be more cost-effective?
Even if it were, it probably wouldn't matter, at least not here. Don't know about other places, but the US learned it's lesson in thinking government controlled housing projects were the end all solution to low income housing. Public housing projects segregated the poor within their community and created hot spots for crime, drugs, and gang activity. The federal government can also sometimes suck at managing things, and apparently real-estate is no exception.

We had exactly the same problems here, compounded (or you might say largely created) by a flyrry of building in the fifties and sixties, using untried and  misguided architectural principles.  It wouldn't be fair to blame the Gocvernment for that though, as Social Housing was entirely under the control of the Local Authorities.

 Those mistakes were being put right, by slow degrees. Our best idea was the Housing Association, which is an inependent charity essentially, performing same role as the Councils , but mostly buying up private housing to transform into Social Housing (though, increasingly, they were building housing too)    That's only going pear-shaped due to the Government imposing same destructive rulings on the Housing Association as on the Local Councils. They are now being forced to sell their houses back to the private sector, rather than expand that operation.

In the meantime, the local Authirities became so low on housing stock that they have aquired the right to allocate Housing Associan properties, just as if they were Council properties. Therefore, all in all,  it's a very much eroded distinction.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 10:24:05 AM by Walkie »

Offline Walkie

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Re: Brexit; Poverty in Britain ;the North-South Divide; race relations etc.
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2016, 11:28:54 AM »
It would surely be a more cost-effective use of taxpayer's  money if the authorities consistently acted as landlord, but the right wing just don't like that idea for some reason.

Why would it be more cost-effective?

Given that most Social Housing tenants would be  dependant on Welfare to some degree...

 (or rather should be, given that it's meant to house the poorest peope. And the pooresrt people, these days  are dependant on Welfare, in some large measure, even if working full-time.  In actuality, it's far from unknown for some professional couple, for instance,  to be living in social housing, given that young professionals often can't afford to buy theirown homes,either, not at present-day prices; and the option to buy the social housing after living there for a  few years is highly attractive. So they put themselves on the waiting lists, like everybody else, and sometimes get lucky.  Plus, anomalies can happen in all sorts of ways, what with people's circumstances changing. But I think most of us are on the waiting lists, these days, often  for 10-20 years. It;'s a bit of lottery whether you ever become eligible in any meaninfful sense of the term ; your position in the queue is just one deciding factor amonst several  )

...OK, umm, given that, and given that those same people are still dependant on Welfare when they can;t get social housing and have to rent privately instead, then  obviously, those Welfare payments then go to private landklords, who are not doing thos out of the goodness of their hearts, they want a profit! Therefore an excess of welfare is paid out, compared with the situation of all those tenants living in not-for-profit in Social Housing It's hard to calculate how much of an excess that actually is, since it all has a knock-on -effect on the private sector, But, in any case,  it's got to be pretty damned  significant, right? It's got to result in bigger-than-necessary Welfare payments.

In any case, the amount of Housing Benefit being shelled out these days has ben used (very disingenuosly)  to back up the "lazy scrounger" rhetoric. If Joe Public is managing (by the skin of his teeth) to get by without claiming Housing Benefit,  he wil all-to-easily assume that the people who claim it are all,  or at least mostly, unemployed.   And that, in turn, hasd been used to justify Housing Benefit reforms , which leave his neighbours unable to keep up with their rent. It's all very nasty, very cynical stuff, this social manipulation.

You get some interesting views from the bottom-of-the-heap.  I sometimes feel privileged , in a way, because I really don't think I'd ever have understood what was going on otherwise, or even taken near so much of an interest. I used to think "I'm an acedemic sort of person. i'll leave thinking about the social issues to people who are qualified to have an opinion on  things like that. I just don't want to study Economics, Sociology  and stuff". But when you're hard-up-againsts those issues all the time, you can't actually help but think about them.




« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 11:31:56 AM by Walkie »