Author Topic: Took the words right out of my mouth  (Read 1278 times)

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2016, 12:52:53 AM »
'Experts' thought we were going to vote to stay in  :orly: 
'Experts' wanted us to join the Euro  :orly:
'Experts' 'believed' Saddam had WMD's and was ready to use them in 45 minutes  :orly:
'Experts' said attacking all these countries in the Middle East would be a good thing  :orly: :orly:

That's a fact

What is?

What the "experts" believed. I wonder what the people would have said if referendums were held. In these instances the experts were wrong in 100% of these cases I reckon the public would have got it a lot closer (even if you think people are too stupid to know what is in their best interests).

I love it when you make my arguments for me.

Unless you hold opposite views to what you touted so far, I really don't think so. I will be charitable and say that you may be confused
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Offline odeon

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2016, 01:03:09 PM »
'Experts' thought we were going to vote to stay in  :orly: 
'Experts' wanted us to join the Euro  :orly:
'Experts' 'believed' Saddam had WMD's and was ready to use them in 45 minutes  :orly:
'Experts' said attacking all these countries in the Middle East would be a good thing  :orly: :orly:

That's a fact

What is?

What the "experts" believed. I wonder what the people would have said if referendums were held. In these instances the experts were wrong in 100% of these cases I reckon the public would have got it a lot closer (even if you think people are too stupid to know what is in their best interests).

I love it when you make my arguments for me.

Unless you hold opposite views to what you touted so far, I really don't think so. I will be charitable and say that you may be confused

 :hahaha:
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Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2016, 03:17:48 PM »
Which is where we will continue to disagree.

I am not a big fan of dictatorships and people making decisions for me or overly regulating me.

Those annoying experts can be so incomprehensible at times. :zoinks:

Indeed. Jargon can be incomprehensible.
You know there can be a difference between smart and correct? Between informed and right? between expertise and indisputable.
Yes we expect that experts will have all the answers to everything in their field and in terms of what is in the public's best interests they will know it better than any member of the public. Its why they are employed in the role. Some times though on the bigger issues, they need input from the public they both represent and are employed by.

'Experts' thought we were going to vote to stay in  :orly: 
'Experts' wanted us to join the Euro  :orly:
'Experts' 'believed' Saddam had WMD's and was ready to use them in 45 minutes  :orly:
'Experts' said attacking all these countries in the Middle East would be a good thing  :orly: :orly:

Experts did not necessarily thought "remain" would win, but they did warn you about the consequences.
Experts were divided, with some suggesting the Euro, others not, IIRC. There was no agreement.
Experts certainly didn't believe Saddam had WMDs. This is just wrong.
Experts certainly didn't all suggest attacking all those countries in the Middle East was even remotely a good thing. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You probably need to do your homework.

What are you talking about?  There wasn't a shed of preparation from the 'experts', as they were all sure we'd stay in.  Across the spectrum the result is described as a "shock".  You seem to be just disagreeing for the sake of it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-live-updates-brexit-polls-how-to-vote-what-happens-to-uk-economy-ifs-niesr-lse-a7093111.html

This is just the "final warning" of these three institutions. There were quite a few of such warnings and to miss all of them you need to have been avoiding the media like the plague for the last six months at the very least.

There are many, many other examples.

Quote
We've never said we were talking about all 'experts' and if we were, plenty of 'experts' said we'd be better off coming out of the European Union. 

"Plenty", in this case, was what Financial Times somewhat charitably labelled a "sizable minority". They say around 75% of the financial experts warned against the effects of leaving.

So we are talking about a majority a lot larger than the 52%.

Quote
Again, you seem to be disagreeing for the sake of it, British 'Intelligence' produced a report with the WMD claim. 

Hans Blix, the UN Chief Inspector at the time, claims that to this day, neither the US nor the UK have presented their evidence to him. See Wikipedia for more (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War).

He and his team provided a report presented well before the invasion, providing evidence of the contrary, however, something that could hardly be ignored by the two countries.

Are you deliberately ignoring this? Or, for that matter, deliberately ignoring the recent findings re Mr Blair?

Quote
And again...  Multiple 'experts' made these claims.  And yes, some 'experts' claimed it would cause disaster.  Are you just picking and choosing with the benefit of hindsight as to who you see as 'experts'?   :lol1:



As for the rest, "attacking all those countries in the Middle East" is such a generic phrase that it's utterly pointless. Which countries? When? IIRC, while the Gulf War was widely supported, the Iraq invasion never was.

Your ignorance shows. It's quite painful, in fact. How old were you at the time of these two wars? How much did you read and watch about them at the time and how much did you have to look up now?

Did I say "powerful crooks should have more power"?

Again, try discussing the topic at hand, preferably without putting words in my mouth.

Not in as many words, but it's what you are asking for.

And you are doing it again.

OK, then you must have completely fooled me.  What are you asking for?

Look, if you can't remember the discussion, you should probably stop posting. Try going back and rereading the thread before posting more nonsense.

For the last time Odeon, we have not left yet!!!  And we won't know the results of leaving until we have left (if we do) and seen the plan in action for at least a couple of years and made the trade deals.  A bunch of rich people have lost a lot of money in a short space of time because they were so arrogant as to think that the British people wouldn't dare vote to leave.  But the long term is far more important and we can only speculate for now.

We're not talking about the affects of leaving, I said that 'experts' believed we were going to stay. 

Blix is one 'expert', as I said, the 'experts' with British Intelligence produced a report claiming that Saddam had WMD's.  So again, you are cherry picking what 'experts' and just using the ones that you wish.  Some 'experts' believed the tripe about Saddam's WMD's and some knowingly lied.  And again you resort to your Captain Hindsight character.  We're not talking about 2016, we're talking about 2003 before the Iraq invasion.  For all I know, you could have been in favor of it and waited until the Chilcot Report was released to then join the crowd, now it's been officially confirmed. 

Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Yemen, Libya, Syria...   I never said that the Iraq war was widely supported, I said that 'experts' said attacking these countries would be a good thing, as we love democracy so much.  I never said how many, and what does the majority have to be to be all 'experts', wouldn't that have to be 100%, or wait 75% is the rule you've made, what about 74%?  But not 52%?  Cause that isn't a real majority....

Really Odeon, you're making some claim that I would have had to be an adult at the time of the first Gulf War?  Does that mean you cannot comment on WWII because you weren't even born?  Surely as a fan of hindsight you would agree we can actually learn far more after the events? 

I've read through, I want to know what your stance is please?  Just sum it up short and sweet if you would.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2016, 10:19:46 AM »
So I'm cherry-picking but you are not? That's sort of funny.

I was not in favour of the Iraq war in 2003. Like others, I followed the UN team and its findings with some interest since they never found any indication of WMDs and were quite public about it, whereas Bush was as adamant about the opposite being true. I don't really care what you think, though. I know where I stand but you seem to have trouble with your side.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2016, 10:47:27 AM »
So I'm cherry-picking but you are not? That's sort of funny.

I was not in favour of the Iraq war in 2003. Like others, I followed the UN team and its findings with some interest since they never found any indication of WMDs and were quite public about it, whereas Bush was as adamant about the opposite being true. I don't really care what you think, though. I know where I stand but you seem to have trouble with your side.

Fuck, I hate referendums. But I do now wonder what would have been the outcome of a referendum on that one.

Why do I hate referendums, because they do not take the public serious. They do not take votes cast before serious. They reduce difficult issues into a simple A or B thing, hoping they spindoctered it well enough to get the outcome they want.

I rather have a government take the mandate they have been given during elections serious, and brave enough to bear the consequences of their own policy, without blaming it on the people by means of a referendum.




On simple issues, in smaller communities, I can see referenda work. Otherwise they will hardly ever be anything else than a spindoctered game, that can go wrong.

That the referenda I have voted for have not been taken serious, because the people voted different than hoped for has not helped improve my ideas on a referendum. On the other hand, the issues were that complicated that reducing it to a referendum was taking the public for people without functioning brain-cells beyond the ones needed to colour a box red.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2016, 10:52:31 AM »
+
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: Took the words right out of my mouth
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2016, 09:55:37 AM »
So I'm cherry-picking but you are not? That's sort of funny.

I was not in favour of the Iraq war in 2003. Like others, I followed the UN team and its findings with some interest since they never found any indication of WMDs and were quite public about it, whereas Bush was as adamant about the opposite being true. I don't really care what you think, though. I know where I stand but you seem to have trouble with your side.

Well, I just don't think an 'expert' can really be defined properly. 

What's my side?  I was against the war at the time, without really knowing why, just seemed like bullshit and they were so desperate to go in. 
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry: