Brexit omelette with ham and cheese.

[odeon]

As for Brexit and its effects on the UK:

This is, quite obviously, just the beginning and everything is in turmoil. Me, I really hope that I am going to be wrong because I like the country and, these days, very much depend on it. As many other expats, I can't help but notice the short-term effects because they are very real and affect me directly.

I think the warnings about the long-term effects are correct and that they haven't been taken seriously by many of the voters (and non-voters, actually). I think the legal experts who point out that Brexit actually must be a Parliamentary decision are correct, and I'm surprised this was not explored further long before the referendum. Cameron certainly should have.

And I think that this is something that should never have been voted on because it's actually something that is beyond most people (present company included). It is a bit like hiring people on the street as surgeons, it's not a good idea, because not everything is something that can be properly understood by the general population.

You want to live in a dictatorship, then please do this country a favor and fuck off.  We vote in elections and choose the government.  We made a decision and it is down to the government to implement that decision.  But your heroes were too arrogant and moronic to have a plan for something they thought wasn't possible.  So in fact, it is actually your beloved 'experts' that have proved to be utterly incompetent, a bit like they were when it comes to decision making regarding things like you know, wars.  And in the case of Iraq, your beloved 'experts' were proved to be utterly incompetent, where as the British people and the "conspiracy theorists" have been proved right 

WTF are you on about? Do try to focus, please.

[odeon]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

 

I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.   

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory

"Hundreds of protesters..."

Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.

[odeon]

"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.

And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.

It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year.  The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise.  They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year.  It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.

Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.

But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.

[odeon]

Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit. 

Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".

I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally.  That may in itself be a good thing.

Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?

I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.

It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.

We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.

A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.

It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators)  will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).

I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.

The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.

But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.

[odeon]

Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways.  We had formed a monotone culture pretty much.  White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades.  That's insane.  These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.

It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.

Nor is the fear for it, though.

[Al Swearegen]

Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways.  We had formed a monotone culture pretty much.  White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades.  That's insane.  These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.

I think that you are right in what you said about monotone culture to an extent. I think a better word is assimilation. It ought not be a lofty ideal, it ought to be a requirement.
I am certain that there are many people in Britain, America and Australia who want ALL Muslims to stay away and all people from other cultures. Most don't though. I believe that most are happy for the variety and diversity BUT they want the immigrants to make their host nation their new home. Home in not just the residency sense but the abstract sense. The pride and patriotism.

I am a mongrel. I am part Irish, part English, part German and part Aboriginal. But I am 100% Australian. Do I feel the longing to embrace my Aboriginal culture? My German? My Irish? My English?

No I am Australian. I grew up with a diversity of cultures. I knocked around with Yugoslavians, Italians and Asians as a boy and in my early teens. I was Very close as a late teen and early 20's with Indian and Greeks. My First real love was an Egyptian girl. As I was working I became close to a lot of people from different Muslim persuasion too. All of these people were 100% Aussie too BUT they celebrated different occasions to me, they had different and exotic food and some of their beliefs were slightly different.

But each of these people assimilated and loved Australia. Some were first generation and some second and some third. This is where the problem lays with Radicalised Muslim extremism. It is not like people that I mentioned above. The radical Muslim extremist sees immigration as a religious passage of hijrah. It is not to make a home but as part of a greater effort to dominate and colonise. Letting these people in is not to soften their hateful resolve or to give them a new point of view. These radicals are toxic. Their resolve is absolutist and nihilistic. They not only do not understand the need and expectation to assimilate, they are completely uninterested in such a prospect.

As long as governments pander to the concept that stating these things is bad, wicked, fear-mongering and bigoted, then these nations will be hurt continually and the citizens of the countries will bear the brunt of the extremist inclinations.

[Al Swearegen]

Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit. 

Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".

I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally.  That may in itself be a good thing.

Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?

I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.

It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.

We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.

A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.

It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators)  will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).

I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.

The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.

But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.

I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.

"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."

"Music concerts...meh."

"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."

"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."

[benjimanbreeg]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

 

I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.   

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory

"Hundreds of protesters..."

Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.

If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100    A bit like this I guess

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html

[benjimanbreeg]

"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.

And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.

It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year.  The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise.  They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year.  It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.

Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.

But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.

Something needed to be done.  People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism.  The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week.  This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year.  The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it.  The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so.  Now it's time for the politicians to act. 

It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you.  There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils.  At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly. 

[benjimanbreeg]

Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways.  We had formed a monotone culture pretty much.  White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades.  That's insane.  These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.

It's amusing that you don't seem to know your capital at all. London used to be the centre of an empire, like it or not, and the multiculturalism, like it or not, is not something new.

Nor is the fear for it, though.

It was never pretended that the non British people were part of the British race then.  Never have we had immigration on this scale, not even close.  We had a lot when Jews were seeking refuge over 100 years ago.  But now British people are a minority in England's capital city, which is insane.  When the start of the transformation was happening in the 50's and 60's, people were complaining then to their MP's, speaking of being the only British people left in their street.  A large majority of people agreed with Enoch Powell's 1968 speech, which would have meant repatriating the immigrant population if he'd become Prime Minister.  Lots of immigrants also wanted this, as they'd have been rewarded with £1000 each.  Both sides of my family have come from London, they say it's been completely rearranged.  Pretending it's always been this way is ludicrous, but what should I expect from a parrot like you.  Corrupt politicians spew the same tripe all the time.   

[benjimanbreeg]

Those groups are what have made the British people, and the key also being that they are closer in a lot of ways.  We had formed a monotone culture pretty much.  White British people have become a minority in their own capital city in a matter of decades.  That's insane.  These policies have been carried out with evil intent and we're seeing the results more and more frequently now.

I think that you are right in what you said about monotone culture to an extent. I think a better word is assimilation. It ought not be a lofty ideal, it ought to be a requirement.
I am certain that there are many people in Britain, America and Australia who want ALL Muslims to stay away and all people from other cultures. Most don't though. I believe that most are happy for the variety and diversity BUT they want the immigrants to make their host nation their new home. Home in not just the residency sense but the abstract sense. The pride and patriotism.

I am a mongrel. I am part Irish, part English, part German and part Aboriginal. But I am 100% Australian. Do I feel the longing to embrace my Aboriginal culture? My German? My Irish? My English?

No I am Australian. I grew up with a diversity of cultures. I knocked around with Yugoslavians, Italians and Asians as a boy and in my early teens. I was Very close as a late teen and early 20's with Indian and Greeks. My First real love was an Egyptian girl. As I was working I became close to a lot of people from different Muslim persuasion too. All of these people were 100% Aussie too BUT they celebrated different occasions to me, they had different and exotic food and some of their beliefs were slightly different.

But each of these people assimilated and loved Australia. Some were first generation and some second and some third. This is where the problem lays with Radicalised Muslim extremism. It is not like people that I mentioned above. The radical Muslim extremist sees immigration as a religious passage of hijrah. It is not to make a home but as part of a greater effort to dominate and colonise. Letting these people in is not to soften their hateful resolve or to give them a new point of view. These radicals are toxic. Their resolve is absolutist and nihilistic. They not only do not understand the need and expectation to assimilate, they are completely uninterested in such a prospect.

As long as governments pander to the concept that stating these things is bad, wicked, fear-mongering and bigoted, then these nations will be hurt continually and the citizens of the countries will bear the brunt of the extremist inclinations.

It's not meant to work, these policies have been carried out with evil intent.  Sure, people could come in small numbers and gradually become like Brits, and that happens more in towns and villages.  But when masses have been poured into the cities, it is fatal and the British people actually start trying to be like the immigrant population.  It's embarrassing to hear some of them talk in their fake gangsta Jamaican wannabe patois. 

Australia is a different animal. 

Muslims have been poured into the West while we blow up their countries, not out naivety or good intentions.  Can't really blame it on the Muslims, they are just pawns as are we. 

[benjimanbreeg]

Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit. 

Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".

I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally.  That may in itself be a good thing.

Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?

I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.

It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.

We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.

A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.

It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators)  will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).

I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.

The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.

But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.

I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.

"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."

"Music concerts...meh."

"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."

"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."

 

[odeon]

Sweden is considered by media to be the rape capital of the world. Whilst I think that is possibly a little unfair. I sure as Hell I think it would not be a place to "move back to" or visit. 

Swedish politics and Swedish culture has contributed to its internationally headlined "Swedish rape epidemic".

I think on this basis alone, any political ideology or political decisions they have are likely the "wrong ones" to have. If they collectively want to stay in EU for example, doing the opposite will likely take you further away from them politically and culturally.  That may in itself be a good thing.

Really? What does rape have to do with strategic political decisions?

I think it is a combination of things. But a large part of things is the political. Why I say this is that if a nation, culture is open, liberal and accepting, then all of these things sound on the face of it very positive and ideals to aspire to. However it does not take much to see the drawbacks of treating a society as though everyone thought this way.

It precisely the reason that as patents we teach our kids good values but also how to fight back against those that do what they are not allowed to do.

We also teach our children that they are best excluding people that aren't nice. We teach our kids that we will protect them and that if we are not there that they are not to place themselves in harms way.

A nation that is falling over themselves to be accepting and inclusive beyond the ability to protect themselves, is certainly contributing to rape epidemic.

It gets better. You can bet that the measures, if any, they take to address this (apparently "Don't grope" brackets given out at a music concert did not work as they were worn but the perpetrators)  will be...... Males to accompany single women and/or women to dress more moderately (perhaps introducing recommended Burke's or the like).

I love it how you try to make a reasonable post of not having a clue what you are on about.

The "rape epidemic" is an invention of the media. It's not real. It's a result of changing legislation and definitions, not an actual increase in anything, which BRÅ themselves have been pointing out for years by now. They've repeatedly said that trying to compare statistics between countries is pointless since what's being measured differs.

But you should know this, if you had actually taken the time to study the numbers. It's not hard and it's all there.

I love how you dismiss everything and wave it off.

"Swimming pools? No it was just one swimming pool that had these things happen and I know it made international news for kids being sexually assaulted there regularly to the point where after "groping guards" had failed to make a difference, they were forced to make gender segregated times to spare young girls from being groped and raped by foreign men, but it was only one pool."

"Music concerts...meh."

"Rape capital of the world...doesn't mean much the stats are lying, the media skewed, they are all picking on poor inclusive and accepting Sweden."

"You so don't know what you are talking about. We may have a bad rap around the world but we have no problems at all."

I take it that you haven't studied the numbers, then? I guess it just fits your new MO that everything having to do with me is, or should be, under attack. Sort of sad, really.

Is this what happened when you started to obsess with everything Zegh? You simply went overboard and couldn't stop?

Pathetic.

[odeon]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

 

I like it when you make big political posts, you always prove that you know fuck all.   

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/09/anti-austerity-protesters-take-to-uk-streets-after-tory-election-victory

"Hundreds of protesters..."

Compare it to the millions of signers to the petition.

If you take away all the fake signatures, there was probably about 100    A bit like this I guess

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-snub-190000-strong-petition-calling-for-no-confidence-vote-in-david-cameron-a6740441.html

Oh, I'm fairly sure that there were still reasonably many signatures left, after they removed the fakes. Did they ever check those 190,000?

Not that any of it matters. I hear the petition was rejected.

[odeon]

"Get on with things" implies the Leave campaign had a plan. They didn't, or they are hiding it exceptionally well because all they have done after the referendum is to go back on their promises. But if you know better, then I think you should speak up, Al.

And arguing that since there was a time when they weren't a member of the EU and everything worked just fine is a bit like saying that we've done without electricity before and we can again.

It was up to the elected government to have a plan, as the fucking referendum was in their manifesto last year.  The Tories didn't actually expect to get a majority and carry out their promise.  They had gotten away with their "cast iron" promise of a referendum in 2010 by being saved by the Lib Dems and would have hoped for something similar last year.  It was down to the Prime Minister to plan for either outcome on the referendum, but he only planned for one and then cried and resigned on the spot when it didn't go his way.

Promising a referendum was an exceptionally stupid decision. It should never have been part of their manifesto but they desperately wanted to win.

But for the Leave campaign to not have a plan means that they actually had no idea what they were advocating. They still don't.

Something needed to be done.  People have had enough of mass immigration and multiculturalism.  The establishment panicked when the BNP won a load of council seats around 2009, so then the media gave us UKIP and Nigel Farage from 2010, putting him on the BBC pretty much every week.  This gave UKIP lots of momentum and forced Cameron to offer a referendum again, if he hadn't, UKIP would have won lots of seats last year.  The British people had been imprisoned long enough and were crying out to be heard rather than being screamed down as racists for wanting to do something about outrageous changes to their communities, when they were never asked if they wanted it.  The majority wanted to become a sovereign state again and we voted to do so.  Now it's time for the politicians to act. 

It was up to David Cameron and the Tory government to have a plan, as I told you.  There shouldn't have even been a leave or remain campaign, people should have just been educated with the facts and then been left to make a choice, but then we'd have left with an overwhelming majority if everyone knew of the true evils.  At the least, they could have put up a decent leave campaign and would have helped to win the vote a lot more convincingly.

This is hilarious. How would this have been done in Benji-land?