Brexit omelette with ham and cheese.

['andersom']

Still can't help but view it as a powerful UK bargaining tool in negotiating with the EU. If that's all it is, then it's very smart. It was even smart to lie to the public in order to get a majority public poll. Governments don't stir up and scare the public like this for nothing, and am personally guessing there's probably some much bigger agenda at stake than what's on the surface and the general public doesn't even realize it. Sometimes see it when the government stirs things here, sometime not until later, and probably sometimes miss it completely; it's like slight of hand. Maybe will realize something in hindsight about the UK and add it to my personal global conspiracy theory.

It was that, I think, till the results of the referendum came in.

But they got more than they bargained for.

The "we'll stay if..." negotiations have all happened before the referendum.
Since the referendum outcome, it is divorce time.
Europe wants the UK out ASAP now.

So, looks like Cameron seriously overplayed his hand, in this game.



Scotland may have a hard time coming in in the EU, because of Spain not wanting Basque and Catalonia going for independence too. But we'll see. Other participants in the EU are willing to give Scotland some slack compared to other wannabee members, because they already follow many EU regulations.

[FourAceDeal]

No. Fouracedeal did

Yes.  He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.

[Al Swearegen]

Vile and fucking racist

And again, don't dare try and claim that you speak for the working class, especially when you're speaking such vile racist bullshit.

Most of my friends are working class, and you certainly don't speak for them

You speak for yourself, and perhaps other racists. Not the working classes

So in your version of the world 52% of Britains are racists?  It's all that simple?  No one had any valid arguements against the EU at all except racist one?

Dead to rights. There will be a few racists on both sides, no doubts. If 5% of the vote was for exiting and there was some evidence that they all were racists I could probably buy that 5% of the population. Hell maybe I am a little naive and it is 10% or 15%.
52%?....I really don't think so.

['andersom']

Think the whole thing is shite. Yes, there are enough things in the EU that need some serious reform. It is stupid how all kinds of precise regulations destroy mini markets in different countries, with apples needing to be a certain size, before they can be called fit for consuming and such.
Yes, there is good in the EU too. It does give a stability and a freedom in trading and finding jobs in other countries that wasn't there before.

Discussing about the EU in referendums, bringing things back to simple choices, disregarding the complexity of the EU, both in where it is good and where it could do with serious improvements is bloody stupid.

I live in a country with a government too scared to take outcomes of referendums as binding, yet we had referendums. Both were on Europe. Both outcomes were not taken serious. They should never have had those referendums in the first place. But they should have looked at where the pains are, when it comes to the EU and address that.

Now in the UK, the non binding referendum will be binding. That courage they have. Bravo for that. But it was stupid to start this referendum from the beginning. The EU is complex. And many of the citizens voting will not have had enough information to weigh the pro's and cons of leaving or staying properly.

The campaigning got played on some points that did it well emotion wise. There was a racist component in some of the exit campaigners. Now all brexit voters get tainted with that. Not fair. But dualising without any notion for nuances has happened the tainting continues.

Maybe that will be one of the biggest challenges the next few months for the UK, or for the individual nations, how to find a sense of belonging together again. To regain some mutual respect.

It's a problem that comes on top of the mess that will happen because of the divorce from the EU.

[FourAceDeal]

Think the whole thing is shite. Yes, there are enough things in the EU that need some serious reform. It is stupid how all kinds of precise regulations destroy mini markets in different countries, with apples needing to be a certain size, before they can be called fit for consuming and such.
Yes, there is good in the EU too. It does give a stability and a freedom in trading and finding jobs in other countries that wasn't there before.

Discussing about the EU in referendums, bringing things back to simple choices, disregarding the complexity of the EU, both in where it is good and where it could do with serious improvements is bloody stupid.

I live in a country with a government too scared to take outcomes of referendums as binding, yet we had referendums. Both were on Europe. Both outcomes were not taken serious. They should never have had those referendums in the first place. But they should have looked at where the pains are, when it comes to the EU and address that.

Now in the UK, the non binding referendum will be binding. That courage they have. Bravo for that. But it was stupid to start this referendum from the beginning. The EU is complex. And many of the citizens voting will not have had enough information to weigh the pro's and cons of leaving or staying properly.

The campaigning got played on some points that did it well emotion wise. There was a racist component in some of the exit campaigners. Now all brexit voters get tainted with that. Not fair. But dualising without any notion for nuances has happened the tainting continues.

Maybe that will be one of the biggest challenges the next few months for the UK, or for the individual nations, how to find a sense of belonging together again. To regain some mutual respect.

It's a problem that comes on top of the mess that will happen because of the divorce from the EU.

The remain campaign pushed that down everyones throats in an effort to win via the politics of innuendo, rather than address any of the sovereignty issues.  Even after the event they are still doing that.

We should have had referendums earlier, before the signing of every major treaty with the EU.  That would have forced renegotiation rather than leading to a point where there was no middle ground.

['Butterflies']

No. Fouracedeal did

Yes.  He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.

Actually, I'm not sure I was on the losing side. I'm Scottish, and we voted to stay in. Now it looks like we'll be holding an independence referendum. England may be leaving the EU, but it's far from certain Scotland will.

Perhaps you should just get back to deciding who will be allowed to vote in your glorious New England

['andersom']

The remain campaign pushed that down everyones throats in an effort to win via the politics of innuendo, rather than address any of the sovereignty issues.  Even after the event they are still doing that.

We should have had referendums earlier, before the signing of every major treaty with the EU.  That would have forced renegotiation rather than leading to a point where there was no middle ground.

And the other side was completely honest and not telling the others simplified and ridiculed it too much? Not buying it. Reducing complex issues to a simple yes or no, without spending lots of honest time on really educating the voting public is bound to go sour. Had the votes been the other way around, the exeteers would have been sour.

We've had our referendums. Non binding. That was fun, especially on the EU constitution. Not!
And the one on the Ukrainian treaty, big fun. Turned out most of the treaty was already binding, a small part was open to negotiation, but clarity on what was to vote for and what was already decided was nowhere to be found. Stupidity to organise a referendum on that. Even bigger stupidity to turn down a massive 61 % "No" that easy. I do not like my government at the moment.
 
A lot can be improved when it comes to Europe. Some things the EU should just stop with, IMO.
But referendums make things too simple and divide a nation I fear. I think the referendum in the UK was a big mistake.

[Jack]

Europe wants the UK out ASAP now.

It makes sense they would; am reading the possible intent to be harsh about exit negotiations too; making an example of them in order to discourage others from leaving. Do think the UK would be fine without the EU; though the UK splitting might be a different matter.

No. Fouracedeal did

Yes.  He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.

Read it differently. A two party system always for a divided populace, and there will always be disagreement. Disagreement is one thing, but painting the entire country as scummy shit is another, so didn't see it as out of line to say. Then again, it's a bit of a motto here. It's good this conversation has people on both sides; it would be boring otherwise.

[Jack]

Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?

[FourAceDeal]

No. Fouracedeal did

Yes.  He was sick of being called a racist by people who can't accept they were on the losing side of a democratic vote.

Actually, I'm not sure I was on the losing side. I'm Scottish, and we voted to stay in. Now it looks like we'll be holding an independence referendum. England may be leaving the EU, but it's far from certain Scotland will.

Perhaps you should just get back to deciding who will be allowed to vote in your glorious New England

I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote.  A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.

There was no vote by Scotland to do anything.  There was no vote by England to do anything.  There was no vote for NI to do anything.  One vote.  Britain.  Yes.  No.

By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region.  That is all that has happened.  Some statistics.  Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.

['Butterflies']

I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote.  A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.

There was no vote by Scotland to do anything.  There was no vote by England to do anything.  There was no vote for NI to do anything.  One vote.  Britain.  Yes.  No.

By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region.  That is all that has happened.  Some statistics.  Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.

Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.

If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.

Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.


I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.

['andersom']

Would like to thank Pappy for starting this thread; one of the more interesting in a long time. Where are you, Pappy?

Enjoying a spliff with Zegh? 

[odeon]

It's also worth noting that there is a petition floating around about London leaving, too.

That's just another indication how the London based media are getting hysterical and desperate.  London is a bubble.  It is out of touch with the realities of the rest of the country.

Incidentally...  the rest of the UK would secretly like Lonodon to fuck off too. 

But that aside, this is all piss and smoke.  It's nothing but a childish reaction of the Blairite centre left.

It's an indication of people being pissed off and knowing they will be paying for other people's mistakes.

[odeon]

I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote.  A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.

There was no vote by Scotland to do anything.  There was no vote by England to do anything.  There was no vote for NI to do anything.  One vote.  Britain.  Yes.  No.

By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region.  That is all that has happened.  Some statistics.  Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.

Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.

If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.

Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.


I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.

They could actually block the new legislation.

['Butterflies']

I'm not sure what alternate reality you are in, but there was one vote.  A British wide YES/NO vote to stay in or leave the EU.

There was no vote by Scotland to do anything.  There was no vote by England to do anything.  There was no vote for NI to do anything.  One vote.  Britain.  Yes.  No.

By the nature of our electoral system votes are totted up via the same method of general elections which gives us the ability to see how votes are cast by region.  That is all that has happened.  Some statistics.  Nothing else has happened except a lot of speculation.

Yes, I suppose you're right. Nothing has happened. Scotland hasn't called an independence referendum, and UK hasn't left the EU.

If UK does leave the EU, which is looking slightly less certain now, then unless the terms of withdrawal are suitable to Scotland, Scotland will hold a new referendum.

Who knows what the result of the Scottish referendum would be. I guess it probably depends on the terms of the UKs EU withdrawal.


I don't think that Scotland will just blindly do as England tells it.

They could actually block the new legislation.

You have no idea how much I'm hoping this turns out to be true

The Brexiteers would be apoplectic with rage. HOW DARE SCOTLAND TELL THEM WHAT TO DO

Sadly, it's far from certain at the moment that Scotland can block it. It's just the opinion of a few people, and a few others are saying that Scotland really doesn't have the power to block it.
I'm very much keeping my eye on it, and all my fingers crossed