Brexit omelette with ham and cheese.

[odeon]

You voted for Brexit, surely you'd know about this?

Do you not read what I write?  I said I do not give a shit about Boris and Co, I was into this way before the whole 'Brexit' thing.  I have already told you why I voted out.  Boris is a cunt, Gove is a cunt.  I was astonished that we voted to 'leave' with those 2 parasites at the helm.

So you admit that you never bothered to find out the facts? Fucking hell. You deserve what you get. Like it or not, Boris, Gove et al are the kind of people you effectively voted for.

That seems a little dishonest, Odeon. Benji and ANY Brexiter can dislike ANY person who agrees with them on the subject of Brexit. Their agreeing with the principle of UK exiting the UK DOES NOT mean that they MUST agree with and like Johnson and it is the height of idiocy to imply that. (adding case you missed it the first time around, neither does he need to explain other positions Boris may have, defend his personality or outline every strategy the government may possibly make around the future non-EU UK)

If for example someone wants UK out of the EU because they consider the EU a bit of a totalitarian regime in which they feel UK does not get a good representation, that is light years away from someone who is wanting to exit EU because they are racist and believe it will stop the Middle Eastern immigrants. The two are not comparable and it is dishonest and stupid to say if you believe one you believe both and you must agree with each other of all issues.

I see you do this in my callout too and it is ridiculous. IF Benji is a fool as you keep telling us then acting like a fool does not seem to make that case at all.

Still in pissy mood, I see.

Not planning on actually considering your replies because you filter everything I write based on your callouts and the fact that I'm not replying to you in those anymore.

Nice Projection Odeon.

You can keep saying that I am in a pissy mood from here to eternity, but let's be realistic. At some point you will need to let go of that and realise that basing everything around these kind of narrative filters is not making a point. Yes at some point this month, next month, next year you will likely have to drop the "You are still in a pissy mood" chestnut, and accept, no I am not in a pissy mood and likely was not when you originally called it, nor every other time you called it. I do not need to be in a pissy mood to call you on when you are wrong. Not now, not next week, not next year and nor in the past.

You do not wish to reply or back your positions, you sure as hell do not need to tell me. Do or do not, its always been your choice. The fact that I can draw an easy parallel with what you were doing here and what you did in my callout is telling, but not on my behalf.

Keep telling yourself that, Al. You may even believe it. There is a marked difference in how you reacted to my posts before your callouts and after, though, and so the reason should be obvious. Of course, you may not be in a pissy mood but whatever it is, it's about the callouts.

And "pissy mood" is a good, short description.

Except it isn't.

Now it may be simply me or it may be that prior to those callouts I have seen little reason to strongly object to anything you said BECAUSE EVEN when I disagreed with you, I had not seen much of what you said that was irrational, stupid, dishonest or weak as piss.

I contend it is the latter. So as "obvious" as you say it is to you, as with much of what you have said lately, I find the statement dubious. I think that you ability to make an informed choice or reach a sensible conclusion in recent times has taken a nosedive. Following your rationale has been you into the tarmac.

You know my overtures of "You are better than this" and such? There was a reason behind that and for me looking for an agenda. The reason is that in the last few months you have been talking shit. I thought it a passing phase, or a bad mood, or something "I" was missing. It is obviously the new status quo. I have adjusted to it and now do not expect much more than rubbish from you.

Call it pissy as much as you like but as I say, next week, next month or next year it will be apparent as to the status quo.

It's you.

You've changed, and I believe I'm not the only one to point it out.

[Al Swearegen]

I think not.

[odeon]

I think not.

/shrugs

It's obvious to anyone who cares to look, but just as obvious that you would disagree.

[Al Swearegen]

I think not.

/shrugs

It's obvious to anyone who cares to look, but just as obvious that you would disagree.

Nope. But regardless, there is a new status quo. A different dynamic. Of that I will agree. We can argue the cause but I doubt it will make the slightest difference to things. Personally I prefer how things were, but that is neither here nor there. I responded to bullshit that you slung at me for a reaction. I was always going to react, and you knew this and played for a reaction. This is the result. I think the process changed you and you think the same of me.

[odeon]

Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.

[Al Swearegen]

Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.

Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.

[odeon]

Except I also disagree with you on what happened in these last three months.

Not that it matters it changes nothing. Would have been better all around if it were not started initially. All hindsight stuff I suppose, just not exactly necessary.

We can stop any time you like.

[Pyraxis]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

[rock hound]

Another one from Pea:  I sometimes wonder if this is going to happen during the nomination conventions into the national elections........we may move to Canada yet!   

Post this in Brexit topic if you want:

Brexit voter being ganged up in London. How brave of them.



Attempt to Take Her Placard, Woman Argues with Pro-Leave Lady, Jane
London today. UK Referendum Voxpops (#26)
youtube.com

[odeon]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

[rock hound]

Hello from Pea!

Post this for me:

"This has nothing to do with the site owner, but I think Sweden needs to be independent. I feel bad for the women there who have to deal with these horrible migrants from poorer countries. England and Scotland is a given because of their familial ties with the the vikings. The Swedes need to get their pride back and stop being the EU's dogs.

If anyone wants to message me for a chat outside of intensity, here's my fb account. I'm using a fake one for work related reasons. Not going to add you lot, but up for a natter if you like.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100011475585507/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU
Chat Conversation End
Type a message...

[rock hound]

It's all about free speech...american style!   Don't like it......BAN MY ASS and FUCK YOU!   

[Jack]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

That's an excellent argument. Though personally found the public vote to be an impressive political move. It's true, decisions like that are generally made by legislators, but this is particularly huge and any action would have reflected poorly on legislation if they couldn't show they had the approval of the public.

[Al Swearegen]

I wrote "effectively". But then, you not understanding the difference is really why people like you shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place. You simply aren't capable of deciding anything more important than ...

Sorry, I tried to think of something there to be nice, but couldn't. You shouldn't be allowed to decide anything, tbh.

Yeah this is a load of crap. I know you don't suffer fools, but I didn't know you went as far as thinking they should not be allowed to vote in a democracy. Every citizen should be equal under the law, because every citizen will have to live with the consequences of the vote. A country is not private property for an educated elite to be fucking around with.

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

Summarised if I may:

I have a different opinion to Benji and dislike him personally.

Therefore Benji is wrong, wrong, wrong

Therefore his opinion is dangerous and uninformed and ill-thought out and he must not be able to represent any of his views by way of voting.

Better the Government make our decisions for us than risk someone like Benji or many people like Benji (that I disagree with) make decisions for us. Welcome to Big Brother

[Pyraxis]

While the above is specifically against Benji, I think allowing people (including me, btw) to vote on something like this is a very bad idea. There is no way most know, or are able to learn, enough to make a competent decision.

Democracy is not just about being allowed to vote, it's also about responsibility and accountability. We can, and perhaps should, elect our leaders, the idea being that they are competent enough to handle this sort of thing and if not, we'll pick someone else the next time. The idea is that THEY are competent enough to handle the big decisions that we simply cannot, or that they in turn can nominate experts who can.

A referendum to decide on those matters, however, is never about responsibility since the people are easily swayed and susceptible to all kinds of horror stories and irrationality, and once they've voted they'll just go back to whatever they were doing, without any accountability or responsibility whatsoever. It's everyone's fault and it's no-one's fault. The question itself is a simple yes/no and so there doesn't have to be a thorough analysis of anything, just an instinct or a feeling, a quick vote, and that's it.

The idea that a referendum is the ultimate form of democracy and thus must make sense is an illusion. You might as well allow the general population to vote on treatment options for the sick in a hospital.

Witness the "morning after" the Brexit vote, when many leave voters rather uncharacteristically realised that they had been lied to and admitted it, thousands of them going out in the streets to protest. It's unheard of right after an election, which is as it should be because the idea of democracy should actually not be to vote on government decisions but to vote on a government to do it in their place.

So if you want to be upset with me for not wanting the general population to vote on this sort of thing, go right ahead. Benji has illustrated rather well why the idea is so bizarre in the first place.

But what makes you think the politicians are A, more informed and B, representing your best interests?

It makes sense for specialized experts to make decisions within their field when it's a question of specific knowledge, like what treatment will cure a certain disease. But whether a country should stay part of the EU has far-reaching consequences over a broad range of disciplines. Questions of economics, foreign relations, global trade, immigration, domestic policy, etc. Each one is a field specialized enough to have its own formal program of study. Political leaders can't possibly be an expert on everything. They may have advisors, but their time is carefully regimented and information is filtered by staff who have jobs on the line and pressure to tell them what they want to hear.

Nobody may be forcing the populace to do their own research, but look at the debates that have been flourishing between people of all intelligence and education levels. People want to be informed and they want to have a hand in their own destiny. It's passing the buck to blame them for the sensationalized crap in the media. Somewhere somebody is making an executive decision about what to air.

On the second point, political leaders are no less subject to bias than an average citizen. They're taking into account what will further their careers, what will get them more votes, how they are being funded by special interest groups. The vote is a simple yes/no, but that means the largest political parties take black and white sides. Taking the vote away from the population takes away an individual's power to have a nuanced position, for example to have voted one party into office based on a campaign issue unrelated to the Brexit question, and then later to disagree with the stance that party has taken on Brexit.

Besides, the point has been brought up that the popular vote is not legally binding. Nothing happens until the government submits the official withdrawal notice to the EU. Why would you give up even an unofficial vote?