Author Topic: Odeon, need to know a few things  (Read 4778 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2016, 07:55:19 AM »
It seems to matter to Odeon, so matters to me. Hypocritical can be a pretty loaded word.

Okay, fair enough. But it also matters what YOU think. He does not trump you and visa versa. We are all equal here.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2016, 01:26:20 PM »
But Jack, really? Hypocritical? Did you read me at all? Ganging up was not a part of this argument, it was something Al said about Butterflies, something Butterflies denied.
Yes, yes, and yes. Semantic differences are important in personal conflicts, because one must consider what the other side interprets of the meaning, regardless of the intent of use. It wasn't the actual argument, but part of the argument and you were absolutely right about that. Sir Les' main contention against your claim was one of the importance of semantic differences. That was the sole basis of any case he made for himself against the words being used; he wanted you to care those words mean liar to him. Butterflies thoughts about those words are certainly the more relevant in that discussion because she was on the receiving end, and Sir Les' thoughts on the receiving end are no less relevant. Should probably add you're not hypocritical generally speaking; am talking about this one specific case. If you believe hypocracy isn't the correct term for me to use, then how would you better describe it? Am absolutely willing to consider your feelings, and perfectly fine to be wrong about that. Personally am a hypocrite about all sorts of stuff, but still have no problem saying something is the wrong thing to do; the fact I've done it or do it doesn't change still thinking it's wrong.


I don't think I failed at all.
Then keep fighting about it, and prove Sir Les avoids an honest, deliberate and comprehensive approach to a matter because it may introduce an adverse effect on personally and professionally held views and beliefs. Even if dropping the word professionally from that, it will entail calling him a liar about the reason why he said he did it. It seemed clear all along he was doing it because he was angry, and maybe even enjoying it. It wasn't the right term.

No, it's not since Al is certainly clever enough to know that what he says is loaded. I'd say that his behaviour later, when starting a thread about alternative meanings, says more than I ever could. Plus, of course, Butterflies' reaction both then and now.

But here is the thing: "ganging up" was never my phrase, it was just a phrase that I reacted against, just as Butterflies did, because it is a loaded phrase and there is no way in hell Al doesn't get that.

If anything, it's a case of semantics mattering, which is what I have been saying all along, so using his phrasing against me in this particular instance makes no sense to me.

If Al does understand this, then it's disappointing. If he doesn't, then possibly even more.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2016, 01:28:44 PM »
But Jack, really?
If it's any consideration, have been under a lot of stress and thus acting out of character. Talking too much both here and work. The consequence has meant upsetting people and shooting myself in the foot.

Jack, where else but here ought that not matter.
What you said is fine and your ability to read and understand 3 months + is awesome

You would say that, wouldn't you? Jack getting it wrong is good for you.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2016, 01:30:29 PM »
It seems to matter to Odeon, so matters to me. Hypocritical can be a pretty loaded word.

It matters to me because I don't understand or agree with it at all. It makes me feel as if either you've not read what I've said or I've been exceptionally poor at expressing myself. Neither alternative seems right to me.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2016, 01:31:39 PM »
It seems to matter to Odeon, so matters to me. Hypocritical can be a pretty loaded word.

Okay, fair enough. But it also matters what YOU think. He does not trump you and visa versa. We are all equal here.

Of course it matters. If it didn't, would I even be responding now, either to you or to Jack?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Gopher Gary

  • sockpuppet alert!
  • Maniacal Postwhore
  • *
  • Posts: 12665
  • Karma: 651
  • I'm not wearing pants.
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2016, 06:28:40 PM »
I'm highly disappointed none of these insinuations are about me. :soapbox:
:gopher:

Offline Jack

  • Reiterative Utterance of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Maniacal Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 14550
  • Karma: 0
  • You don't know Jack.
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2016, 07:30:38 PM »

But here is the thing: "ganging up" was never my phrase, it was just a phrase that I reacted against, just as Butterflies did, because it is a loaded phrase and there is no way in hell Al doesn't get that.

If anything, it's a case of semantics mattering, which is what I have been saying all along, so using his phrasing against me in this particular instance makes no sense to me.
Already know it wasn't your phrase and reacted against it by criticizing Sir Les for using loaded words, just like he has criticized you for using loaded words. From an outside view, it appears the only interpretations either of you care about is your own, and at the same time insist other people are wrong if they don't see your point of view. So now thinking about it more, maybe should have called you both hypocrites, but probably neither. It was an ass move. Again, I didn't think it important for the two of you to agree on a definition, or for either to say they're wrong about it, but rather more important for both to stop insisting on being right about it. My decision was based on what the words mean to me, and concluding it was the wrong term even by the standards of the definition presented. Although could have made that final decision without saying anything at all about the importance of implications or calling you hypocritical; it wasn't necessary to do that, and I shouldn't have.



« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 07:35:46 PM by Jack »

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2016, 08:21:45 PM »
It seems to matter to Odeon, so matters to me. Hypocritical can be a pretty loaded word.

Okay, fair enough. But it also matters what YOU think. He does not trump you and visa versa. We are all equal here.

Of course it matters. If it didn't, would I even be responding now, either to you or to Jack?

I see what you are saying. Let me put it a little clearly. Jack ought not silence their voice because you may not agree. Same with me. Same with you. If being questioned or disagreed with makes you feel bad, that is a shame but it ought not unto itself make you change your views.

A lot of what I see Jack say is 100% dead on. A lot of her posts I agree with mostly. I think she has shown an alarming amount of insight. Because I agree with her mostly, you would disagree mostly. But I just do not believe she ought to feel bad about that. At all. Jack was hardly being personal or insulting. I can't say the same for myself and Jack has shown a lot of reserve and plenty of patience.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 04:37:24 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2016, 08:41:15 PM »
But Jack, really? Hypocritical? Did you read me at all? Ganging up was not a part of this argument, it was something Al said about Butterflies, something Butterflies denied.
Yes, yes, and yes. Semantic differences are important in personal conflicts, because one must consider what the other side interprets of the meaning, regardless of the intent of use. It wasn't the actual argument, but part of the argument and you were absolutely right about that. Sir Les' main contention against your claim was one of the importance of semantic differences. That was the sole basis of any case he made for himself against the words being used; he wanted you to care those words mean liar to him. Butterflies thoughts about those words are certainly the more relevant in that discussion because she was on the receiving end, and Sir Les' thoughts on the receiving end are no less relevant. Should probably add you're not hypocritical generally speaking; am talking about this one specific case. If you believe hypocracy isn't the correct term for me to use, then how would you better describe it? Am absolutely willing to consider your feelings, and perfectly fine to be wrong about that. Personally am a hypocrite about all sorts of stuff, but still have no problem saying something is the wrong thing to do; the fact I've done it or do it doesn't change still thinking it's wrong.


I don't think I failed at all.
Then keep fighting about it, and prove Sir Les avoids an honest, deliberate and comprehensive approach to a matter because it may introduce an adverse effect on personally and professionally held views and beliefs. Even if dropping the word professionally from that, it will entail calling him a liar about the reason why he said he did it. It seemed clear all along he was doing it because he was angry, and maybe even enjoying it. It wasn't the right term.

No, it's not since Al is certainly clever enough to know that what he says is loaded. I'd say that his behaviour later, when starting a thread about alternative meanings, says more than I ever could. Plus, of course, Butterflies' reaction both then and now.

But here is the thing: "ganging up" was never my phrase, it was just a phrase that I reacted against, just as Butterflies did, because it is a loaded phrase and there is no way in hell Al doesn't get that.

If anything, it's a case of semantics mattering, which is what I have been saying all along, so using his phrasing against me in this particular instance makes no sense to me.

If Al does understand this, then it's disappointing. If he doesn't, then possibly even more.

Evidently and by your own measure Al is a moron because he did not at any time (as I have repeated over and over) attach ANY (got that Odeon) negative connotation, nor was he using the the term "ganging up" in any loaded way or meaning.

So now either I am lying or I am not, which Odeon? Choose one.

That is as simple as this gets.

The thread was genuine. It was me genuinely mocking you, but also genuinely seeing how off track I was. It appears that I wasn't. BUT let's test the theory, here were some suggestion of better alternatives, you tell me what I "SHOULD HAVE" used:

"mobbing"
"dog piling"
"Lending support"
"Constructive Criticism"
"Forming a Posse"

Now you may have a problem with any of these suggestions too. But they may well have been used by the members offering them. Mind you THOSE members never pulled me up on MY phrase. So I want you to tell me which of these phrases YOU do not find appropriate or loaded?

Then tell me what phrase GIVEN the context I SHOULD have used?

Its fine to throw it out there and say I meant x in a  y way. But YOU need to back yourself. If I deny it am I lying? Yes or no? If I ought not have used that phrase then what phrase would have been suitable in the way that I meant it, and in describing what I was describing? As you have not told me I sought other opinions, were THEIR opinions equally wrong or right?

IF they are wrong too or if you find it difficult in finding an appropriate phrase then are YOU perhaps wrong? If you come up with a better phrase, is it JUST your opinion and does that make your a moral arbiter?

Recently in Australia, we had an idiot in some position of power they don't deserve pushing idiotic narratives.

Here is one:


There has been A LOT of pushback. Why? Because to most people "Hey guys" is NOT a loaded phrase. But to some it is. Some people saying "Hey guys" mean it to say "hey everyone" BUT there is a thought that some may mean it to be purely an allocation of masculine gender identity or whatever this idiot is pronouncing. So the speaker has to re-think THEIR position? NO!

If you are with me so far, you will probably agree that it matters in which way the person meant it and that there was more than one way they could have. You would likely agree, it may mean a person upset by the usage can complain or express confusion as to how they actually meant it, BUT THAT does not change the usage or intent.

They have found the use of "Hey girls" for women is almost equally rejected. Most people are not sensitive to it and most do not see it as problematic.

If I take this a step further, if I say "Hey gang" what am I implying about the make up of the people I am talking about? Not a lot?

When I said "ganging up" I meant it entirely in the sense that they were both collectively and together disagreeing/arguing/critiquing/criticising DFG. THAT is it. Together and at the same time.

There was NO moral judgement. There was nothing nasty. There as no implication of bullying - not on here.

So again I have asked a lot of very reasonable questions (many of which you seem to have sought to evade) and in context of all I have said, I would not mind some answers.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 04:42:54 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2016, 08:42:39 PM »
But Jack, really?
If it's any consideration, have been under a lot of stress and thus acting out of character. Talking too much both here and work. The consequence has meant upsetting people and shooting myself in the foot.

Jack, where else but here ought that not matter.
What you said is fine and your ability to read and understand 3 months + is awesome

You would say that, wouldn't you? Jack getting it wrong is good for you.

I've answered this elsewhere

Quote
I see what you are saying. Let me put it a little clearly. Jack ought not silence their voice because you may not agree. Same with me. Same with you. If being questioned or disagreed with makes you feel bad, that is a shame but it ought not unto itself make you change your views.

A lot of what I see Jack say is 100% dead on. A lot of her posts I agree with mostly. I think she has shown an alarming amount of insight. Because I agree with her mostly, you would disagree mostly. But I just do not believe she ought to feel bad about that. At all. Jack was hardly being personal or insulting. I can't say the same for myself and Jack has shown a lot of reserve and plenty of patience.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 04:43:32 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2016, 09:08:47 PM »
It seems to matter to Odeon, so matters to me. Hypocritical can be a pretty loaded word.

It matters to me because I don't understand or agree with it at all. It makes me feel as if either you've not read what I've said or I've been exceptionally poor at expressing myself. Neither alternative seems right to me.

You have railed against me apparently using the wrong words or using words with a loaded or greater meaning. YET you have continually fumbled and stumbled over the last 3 months accusing me of one thing and then walking it back, retracting it or saying that it was used in the wrong context or that it was perhaps correct but the wrong word for what you were saying.

Yes dishonest was one and pretending was another. But there have been others too including the phrase "knowingly misrepresenting".

Compare YOUR conduct against what you accused me of doing and you ought to be able to see hypocrisy. You ought to be able to see a reluctance to administer the same level of scrutiny with my behaviour as you afford yourself.

The key difference if any is that in my case I think the charge of me using a loaded term which means specifically being nasty or bullying is not right in that context, whereas YOU admit each of those examples of yours were.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 04:44:50 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Jack

  • Reiterative Utterance of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Maniacal Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 14550
  • Karma: 0
  • You don't know Jack.
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2016, 09:35:18 PM »
Jack getting it wrong is good for you.
Just noticed this. Don't think I got it wrong. It was a jerk thing for me to say, and wrong to single you out for a behavior you both were doing.

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2016, 09:43:07 PM »
Jack getting it wrong is good for you.
Just noticed this. Don't think I got it wrong. It was a jerk thing for me to say, and wrong to single you out for a behavior you both were doing.

I disagree BUT I do not think it was a jerk thing for you to say and neither do I think you were wrong. More importantly, I believe you ought to feel free to say what you think. Maybe not at work, maybe not at home, but here.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2016, 06:29:55 AM »
But Jack, really? Hypocritical? Did you read me at all? Ganging up was not a part of this argument, it was something Al said about Butterflies, something Butterflies denied.
Yes, yes, and yes. Semantic differences are important in personal conflicts, because one must consider what the other side interprets of the meaning, regardless of the intent of use. It wasn't the actual argument, but part of the argument and you were absolutely right about that. Sir Les' main contention against your claim was one of the importance of semantic differences. That was the sole basis of any case he made for himself against the words being used; he wanted you to care those words mean liar to him. Butterflies thoughts about those words are certainly the more relevant in that discussion because she was on the receiving end, and Sir Les' thoughts on the receiving end are no less relevant. Should probably add you're not hypocritical generally speaking; am talking about this one specific case. If you believe hypocracy isn't the correct term for me to use, then how would you better describe it? Am absolutely willing to consider your feelings, and perfectly fine to be wrong about that. Personally am a hypocrite about all sorts of stuff, but still have no problem saying something is the wrong thing to do; the fact I've done it or do it doesn't change still thinking it's wrong.


I don't think I failed at all.
Then keep fighting about it, and prove Sir Les avoids an honest, deliberate and comprehensive approach to a matter because it may introduce an adverse effect on personally and professionally held views and beliefs. Even if dropping the word professionally from that, it will entail calling him a liar about the reason why he said he did it. It seemed clear all along he was doing it because he was angry, and maybe even enjoying it. It wasn't the right term.

No, it's not since Al is certainly clever enough to know that what he says is loaded. I'd say that his behaviour later, when starting a thread about alternative meanings, says more than I ever could. Plus, of course, Butterflies' reaction both then and now.

But here is the thing: "ganging up" was never my phrase, it was just a phrase that I reacted against, just as Butterflies did, because it is a loaded phrase and there is no way in hell Al doesn't get that.

If anything, it's a case of semantics mattering, which is what I have been saying all along, so using his phrasing against me in this particular instance makes no sense to me.

If Al does understand this, then it's disappointing. If he doesn't, then possibly even more.

How many people are needed in order for a gang to be a gang? Out of interest.



"One Man Gang"

A gang of one? A gang of two? A gang of three? I'd probably say three or more.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: Odeon, need to know a few things
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2016, 01:51:11 AM »
Who cares, Al? You brought it up, not me, so you answer it. I'm done with all this.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein