Author Topic: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.  (Read 7915 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2016, 08:18:13 PM »
understanding what intellectual dishonesty is.
Don't even think the term can be applied to this topic. The difference between intellectual dishonesty and regular dishonesty, is the context of an intellectual stance. Like cherry picking facts, omitting facts, or presenting biased conclusions based on facts, in order to support a stance. It is in fact smart lying, because the facts aren't really lies, and omissions aren't really lies either. The first term used, pretending, was probably better. If Odeon just thinks you're pretending to not read Zeg, then he's entitled to his opinion. If he had stood firm to that personal perception, you would have lost this callout.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2016, 08:25:07 PM »
understanding what intellectual dishonesty is.
Don't even think the term can be applied to this topic. The difference between intellectual dishonesty and regular dishonesty, is the context of an intellectual stance. Like cherry picking facts, omitting facts, or presenting biased conclusions based on facts, in order to support a stance. It is in fact smart lying, because the facts aren't really lies, and omissions aren't really lies either. The first term used, pretending, was probably better. If Odeon just thinks you're pretending to not read Zeg, then he's entitled to his opinion. If he had stood firm to that personal perception, you would have lost this callout.

I don't think even in that eventuality I would have lost. The reason being, he would have still had to evidence
 That "Gotcha" moment would never have come because it was not there.

Proclaiming something over and over or lower and louder doesn't make the argument better
 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 05:10:52 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2016, 08:34:11 PM »
Al claims to not read *any* of my posts or shouts in the shout box.

This is simply not possible. The human brain involuntarily recognizes the symbols in our alphabet, to such a degree, it can eevn rceognzie scarlmbed leterts

So simply from there, Al either pretends or lies. But whatever  ::)

HI ROSS

Offline Jack

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2016, 08:43:22 PM »
understanding what intellectual dishonesty is.
Don't even think the term can be applied to this topic. The difference between intellectual dishonesty and regular dishonesty, is the context of an intellectual stance. Like cherry picking facts, omitting facts, or presenting biased conclusions based on facts, in order to support a stance. It is in fact smart lying, because the facts aren't really lies, and omissions aren't really lies either. The first term used, pretending, was probably better. If Odeon just thinks you're pretending to not read Zeg, then he's entitled to his opinion. If he had stood firm to that personal perception, you would have lost this callout.

I don't think even in that eventuality I would have lost. The reason being, he would have still had to evidence
 That "Got ha" moment would never have come because it was not there.

Proclaiming something over and over or lower and louder doesn't make the argument better
 
Thinking the callout wouldn't have been able to be won, because Odeon doesn't have to prove he has an opinion about what you read, just like you don't have to prove Zeg is full of shit just because you think it. At best, it could have ended effortlessly on the point of the word pretending. Like when SG called me a liar. Odeon wouldn't really be lying by saying he thinks you're pretending, because that's the truth of his perception and what he thinks. Though you in fact have rebutted that you're not pretending, and him saying you are pretending is a lie. So he can either accept you are telling him the truth, or you can accept his opinion you're pretending, or neither, and the two of you can continue to call each other liars.

Offline Jack

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2016, 09:12:23 PM »
Al claims to not read *any* of my posts or shouts in the shout box.

This is simply not possible. The human brain involuntarily recognizes the symbols in our alphabet, to such a degree, it can eevn rceognzie scarlmbed leterts

So simply from there, Al either pretends or lies. But whatever  ::)

HI ROSS
It was many months after you began fighting when he told me he was joking in the very beginning, then began skimming, and by that point he wasn't really reading much of you at all. Might have missed where he said he doesn't read a single bit. Maybe he's not reading, or maybe reading every word; couldn't really say. Have explained how logic explains he's not pretending, and have no problem taking him for his word because it doesn't matter to me either way. He also might not really care if you or I think he's pretending. He cares what Odeon thinks. Have to say, over the years, there have been a couple of people encountered here who didn't get read. That's not to say every word escaped me, and probably even responded to something they said from time to time, but yes, largely passed them by. Wouldn't consider myself as lying by saying I didn't read them.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2016, 09:32:06 PM »
understanding what intellectual dishonesty is.
Don't even think the term can be applied to this topic. The difference between intellectual dishonesty and regular dishonesty, is the context of an intellectual stance. Like cherry picking facts, omitting facts, or presenting biased conclusions based on facts, in order to support a stance. It is in fact smart lying, because the facts aren't really lies, and omissions aren't really lies either. The first term used, pretending, was probably better. If Odeon just thinks you're pretending to not read Zeg, then he's entitled to his opinion. If he had stood firm to that personal perception, you would have lost this callout.

I don't think even in that eventuality I would have lost. The reason being, he would have still had to evidence
 That "Got ha" moment would never have come because it was not there.

Proclaiming something over and over or lower and louder doesn't make the argument better
 
Thinking the callout wouldn't have been able to be won, because Odeon doesn't have to prove he has an opinion about what you read, just like you don't have to prove Zeg is full of shit just because you think it. At best, it could have ended effortlessly on the point of the word pretending. Like when SG called me a liar. Odeon wouldn't really be lying by saying he thinks you're pretending, because that's the truth of his perception and what he thinks. Though you in fact have rebutted that you're not pretending, and him saying you are pretending is a lie. So he can either accept you are telling him the truth, or you can accept his opinion you're pretending, or neither, and the two of you can continue to call each other liars.

I think more than this though. If his claim had of been that I pretend not to read Zegh, then it's saying I'm lying.
As a claim it is toothless without evidence.
Again or should be clear there is no evidence to indicate me as having read Zegh, because I haven't
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 09:36:39 PM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Jack

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2016, 09:54:22 PM »
Of course you perceive it that way. Sort of tricky, isn't it? It's possible to believe something and say so, without actually claiming to know, without knowing for certain, much less being able to prove it. My perception of the situation is, he believes you're lying and he said so. You believe his belief is a claim. You're both calling each other liars.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 09:59:54 PM by Jack »

Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2016, 11:39:19 PM »
Jack, you assume that everything he says is honest.
I am pointing out that I do not assume the same thing. He might have explanations for it, but I see them as flailing and dishonest.

He just repeated not to have read, yet he is on the same page we are. He cannot possibly have escaped what I wrote - yet he keeps pretending he did not notice.

He will change his explanations to fit the situation. You can take his words for it, in a pragmatic way, but I choose not to. I take it as flimsyness.

"There is no evidence to indicate I have read - " is meaningless in itself. What evidence would that be? Video footage?

Offline odeon

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2016, 12:37:00 AM »
Surely I'm not the only one who can see that this behaviour is genuinely destroying the site, if it hasn't already :thumbdn:

Before this crap got started, this place was kinda awesome. Now it just sucks. This is sucking the life out of i2.
For the last 4 years, the site seems to have been a succession of bizarre, pointless, and totally obsessive feuds, often lasting the best part of a year each.

A large portion of good members have simply drifted away, and the site is dying. These feuds are the cancer that is killing the site :thumbdn:



Arguments are fine. I enjoy the odd argument. 8 month arguments are not cool, and they're not normal. If this behaviour keeps going, I'm sure even more people will be driven away.

I hear you.

Although I wouldn't say this place is dying. People are always leaving and coming back.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2016, 12:39:08 AM »
I have to agree with fluffy evil one here.

No one wants to read essay vs essay about nothing. 

Retards like odeon do make me laugh though.  He can spend all day nattering like he's some kind of argument guru, but can only muster a meme when it comes to mankind.

I love you too.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2016, 12:56:15 AM »
It's not destroying the site. :laugh: Zeg took accountability for his crap, so happen to consider him in the clear. It took a long time for him to finally do it, but he provided exactly what was expected of him to end it. If it wasn't read by Sir Les, or simply came too late, or just wasn't accepted, is irrelevant. There's nothing more for him to do. It's no longer a valid dispute, but now rather a button pushing contest. Whatever, may the best troll win. The discussion between Sir Les and Odeon is still a valid dispute. Not completely sure what to make of the argument. On the surface it seems to be over a trivial matter, but intellectual dishonesty is by definition intentional, so that means supporting a claim one actually knows to be false or misleading. Being called a smart liar is the same as being called a liar, and that can sure tick off a friend. That's a hard thing to prove too, intent, and even harder when it's only about someone saying someone else is full of shit. Odeon's last post was stellar, but Sir Les isn't disputing the accusation of being called tenacious to the point of annoyingly absurd. This has all transpired over months, and Oden will simply have to find concurrent quotes showing Sir Les calling Zeg out on his shit while at the same time claiming not to read that shit. If he's not going to bother doing that, then he should concede. Zeg and Sir Les may poke at each other from now on, other people here do that too, so what? Though this one in particular is between two friends and thinking it best to be resolved.

You don't need to go any further than this thread. I believe he's said Zegh is full of shit in this thread while saying that he doesn't read his posts. He's also posted another cat picture here.

I don't know if he is reading Zegh's posts or not. I suspect he does read some of them because, as Zegh points out, it's how the brain works. There is no way to prove it one way or the other, though. What is possible to prove, however, is that when it comes to Al, he is still taking the easy way out with Zegh, which was, and is, my point re the intellectual dishonesty.

The easy way out here means that no matter what Zegh says, Al will continue posting ninja cats in response while stating that he doesn't read Zegh's posts. This, of course, also means that no discussion between them is possible, which means that resolving the differences is not possible.

Which, I think, is also taking the easy way out.

For the literal-minded, "posting ninja cats in response" is an expression meant to cover the usual variations, from the actual ninja cats to the snarky response second-guessing Zegh's posts.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline 'Butterflies'

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2016, 02:54:47 AM »
Surely I'm not the only one who can see that this behaviour is genuinely destroying the site, if it hasn't already :thumbdn:

Before this crap got started, this place was kinda awesome. Now it just sucks. This is sucking the life out of i2.
For the last 4 years, the site seems to have been a succession of bizarre, pointless, and totally obsessive feuds, often lasting the best part of a year each.

A large portion of good members have simply drifted away, and the site is dying. These feuds are the cancer that is killing the site :thumbdn:



Arguments are fine. I enjoy the odd argument. 8 month arguments are not cool, and they're not normal. If this behaviour keeps going, I'm sure even more people will be driven away.

I hear you.

Although I wouldn't say this place is dying. People are always leaving and coming back.

Of course this place is dying. It has to be :P In the good old days when the site was awesome, it was dying. Just at a much slower pace.
The constant drama is simply speeding up the inevitable end :(


Here is my opinion, and hence, very possibly completely wrong. It's also based on my shaky knowledge of the history of this place, which might also be very wrong :laugh:

This place was created by some cataclysmic event on WP. Alex seemed to piss a lot of people off, and many of the brightest and best WP posters created this community. With WP being by a mile the biggest, and most well known aspie site, there was an abundance of good posters to make this place interesting in its infancy.

Basically, this site was created by a one-off event. It's success was largely based on taking its membership from a much larger and more established site.

Over time, as with any community, members will slowly drift away. Therefore, the key to keeping the community healthy is to find a way to bring in new productive members, at least as fast as you lose the old members.

Obviously this site lacks the profile, and resources of WP, and bringing in new members at the necessary rate is an almost impossible task. Fewer active members will result in fewer new members, and this ultimately results in a vicious circle spiraling until there aren't enough members to keep the place active.

This is definitely not a criticism of anybody involved in running the site, who I actually think do a rather decent job. It's just my opinion of how a site like this has a very definite life cycle, and is destined to eventually die, whether that be in 5 years, or 25 years.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2016, 05:24:13 AM »
Of course you perceive it that way. Sort of tricky, isn't it? It's possible to believe something and say so, without actually claiming to know, without knowing for certain, much less being able to prove it. My perception of the situation is, he believes you're lying and he said so. You believe his belief is a claim. You're both calling each other liars.

I don't know. I think it would be reasonable for someone to illustrate (after 6 months) of an example where I replied to, or was informed by, something I could not have got from NOT having read him. IF Odeon or anyone else wants to make the claim I DO read Zegh (I do not think Odeon IS making this claim), then again, he can make it BUT it is not a strong claim. It is simply a subjective "I believe X but have nothing to show it is the case or is not the case". It is not a claim to argue or defend.

If it is a "I say" and "he says" then neither is a winning position....and things are not resolving.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline 'Butterflies'

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2016, 06:12:33 AM »
....and things are not resolving.

Actually, this is kinda my point. Does everything need resolved?

I'm not saying you were wrong to call out Odeon over this. Truth is, I've not read enough of this to form any opinion over the rights and wrongs of the argument.

But, at what point do you just say "looks like we'll have to agree to disagree?"

This has been going on for over 2 months now, and there seems to be no end in sight. Would it not be better to move on?

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: No more mantra, Odeon. Back yourself.
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2016, 07:16:22 AM »
It's not destroying the site. :laugh: Zeg took accountability for his crap, so happen to consider him in the clear. It took a long time for him to finally do it, but he provided exactly what was expected of him to end it. If it wasn't read by Sir Les, or simply came too late, or just wasn't accepted, is irrelevant. There's nothing more for him to do. It's no longer a valid dispute, but now rather a button pushing contest. Whatever, may the best troll win. The discussion between Sir Les and Odeon is still a valid dispute. Not completely sure what to make of the argument. On the surface it seems to be over a trivial matter, but intellectual dishonesty is by definition intentional, so that means supporting a claim one actually knows to be false or misleading. Being called a smart liar is the same as being called a liar, and that can sure tick off a friend. That's a hard thing to prove too, intent, and even harder when it's only about someone saying someone else is full of shit. Odeon's last post was stellar, but Sir Les isn't disputing the accusation of being called tenacious to the point of annoyingly absurd. This has all transpired over months, and Oden will simply have to find concurrent quotes showing Sir Les calling Zeg out on his shit while at the same time claiming not to read that shit. If he's not going to bother doing that, then he should concede. Zeg and Sir Les may poke at each other from now on, other people here do that too, so what? Though this one in particular is between two friends and thinking it best to be resolved.

You don't need to go any further than this thread. I believe he's said Zegh is full of shit in this thread while saying that he doesn't read his posts. He's also posted another cat picture here.

I don't know if he is reading Zegh's posts or not. I suspect he does read some of them because, as Zegh points out, it's how the brain works. There is no way to prove it one way or the other, though. What is possible to prove, however, is that when it comes to Al, he is still taking the easy way out with Zegh, which was, and is, my point re the intellectual dishonesty.

The easy way out here means that no matter what Zegh says, Al will continue posting ninja cats in response while stating that he doesn't read Zegh's posts. This, of course, also means that no discussion between them is possible, which means that resolving the differences is not possible.

Which, I think, is also taking the easy way out.

For the literal-minded, "posting ninja cats in response" is an expression meant to cover the usual variations, from the actual ninja cats to the snarky response second-guessing Zegh's posts.

You don't need to go any further than this thread. I believe he's said Zegh is full of shit in this thread while saying that he doesn't read his posts.

Well as to the charge of me saying Zegh is full of shit, I will refer to my good friend, earlier Odeon.

Oh, and Al:

"Full of shit" was always just a phrase, an expression. The fact that you only caught on late in the game doesn't change that, it only shows that I made a mistake in assuming that you'd recognise it for what it was.

Thanks Earlier Odeon, just a phrase, an expression?

He's also posted another cat picture here.

I did too. I feel bad.



I call this one Bernard.

Having cleared this up. Now comes the stretch. YES I did both posted a cat pic AND said Zegh is full of shit (ie used a "just an expression" phrase) BUT....

Oden will simply have to find concurrent quotes showing Sir Les calling Zeg out on his shit while at the same time claiming not to read that shit. If he's not going to bother doing that, then he should concede,

Neither of these are me calling Zegh out on his shit. I do not know what he said. He is full of shit generally. Just an expression or dows it transform to something specific when I say it in a way that it doesn't when you have said it?

What is possible to prove, however, is that when it comes to Al, he is still taking the easy way out with Zegh, which was, and is, my point re the intellectual dishonesty.

Then please prove it. You can prove it right? IF if it possible to prove it, then prove it. "Proving it" is not simply you saying it is so.
I have made an argument that Reading is simple. It is NOT hard. If you read and manage to keep a decent track on what someone is saying or is reacting to things, THAT is not hard.
IF you don't read what someone says and yet keep track of someone, THAT requires a lot more effort and energy. You may disbelieve this BUT I do not much care. No one (including you) is finding me anything that I have been mistaken about, with Zegh.

So I certainly have a different point of view. Your view does not trump mine because you say it does and nor does it "prove" your point as superior to mine. But you said its possible to prove, so how about going about doing that? Or are you now to retort that you could if you wanted but you just don't want to?

Which, I think, is also taking the easy way out.

and...I don't. For reasons I have expressed.

In fact given your own definition, I think you are stretching even considering this one point as the basis for clarifying something as intellectually dishonesty. What else have you got to show intellectual dishonesty?

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty
Intellectual Dishonesty
What is meant when one uses this term? Some possible meanings:
When one avoids an honest, deliberate and comprehensive approach to a matter because it may introduce an adverse effect on personally and professionally held views and beliefs.
Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion. If one judges others more critically than oneself, that is intellectually dishonest. If one deflects criticism of a friend or ally simply because they are a friend or ally, that is intellectually dishonest. etc.

Quote
Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion. If one judges others more critically than oneself, that is intellectually dishonest.
Intellectual Dishonesty
c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Quote
When one avoids an honest, deliberate and comprehensive approach to a matter because it may introduce an adverse effect on personally and professionally held views and beliefs.

Quote
IntellectualDishonesty doesn't necessarily mean lies or otherwise morally wrong deeds. However, in pursuing an intellectual endeavour one has to commit oneself to higher standards. That's what's IntellectualHonesty is all about: keeping those higher standards and living up to the expectations.

So I ask you, in looking at this definition, when did I show intellectual dishonesty by:
a) Fail to apply standards of rational evaluation that I was aware of?
b) Judges others more critically than myself?
c) Avoid an honest approach?
d) Avoid a deliberate approach?
e) Avoid a comprehensive approach?
f) Commit oneself to higher standards? (and higher than what I wonder?)

The problem here is that I KNOW you don't like my approach. That is a given. I KNOW that you think it would be better and maybe you even believe it to be MORE comprehensive or comprehensive in different ways to simply read Zegh.

I never had an issue with you believing any of that. BUT none of that makes something intellectually dishonest. I AM deliberate in my approach and honest in how I go about that and apply the same standard one myself as to others. I am transparent. I act on information that I have. Given Zegh propensity to lie, I think that my standards would not be higher by reading him and given his standard of writing prior to me stopping reading the standard was pretty low. I do not believe anything was lost in not reading him and conversely nothing is gained by reading him.

None of this has a thing to do with Intellectual dishonesty. So what else have you got, Odeon?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 07:23:46 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap