When the law doesn't apply to you

[odeon]

The US took the concept a bit further than that when they filled Guantanamo in the wake of 9/11. Think about it: A citizen of one foreign country kidnapped in another and imprisoned in a third, supposedly violating US or international laws but never tried before a jury...

Now we just let the UK lock them up in immigrant containment centers. That'll teach them to talk smack about the holocaust. 

It's not just the UK.

[odeon]

But he said he didn't mean to claim that it was the Mufti that convinced him, when it's exactly what he meant at the time.  He threw enough mud though.  He did it to make European nationalists believe that he and Israel are on their side, when in fact they despise any goyim. 

He was passing the blame to another ethnicity and blur the responsibility which falls under point 5 of Working definition of Holocaust Denial and Distortion, so does that not mean that countries with the Holocaust laws should be asking for him to be sent there for trial?  Either way, it makes him a "Holocaust Denier".

I'm not going to pretend like I know what he meant to say, I'm just saying he retracted the statement and clarified what he claims to have meant. Saying he should be charged or tried according to the laws of other countries is pointless unless he actually does it while in those countries. 

That's fine, i've just read and seen enough to know what he means, and what he doesn't mean.  Ernst Zundel got deported to Germany to stand trial for alleged previous crimes, but I am not sure if he'd done it while in Germany, or just because it's his homeland.

From what I'm reading about the laws that actually apply to him, it doesn't even matter what he means. You're exhausting to me to try to have conversations like this. Jurisdiction and citizenship are huge factors in attempts to extradite people. Germany can't extradite me because I'm over here doing stuff that would be against the law over there. I'm a US citizen in the US so it's okay if I'm breaking German laws that don't apply to me because I'm not doing it there. 

Benji is confused by the law.

An added twist, the US won't extradite any citizen to a foreign country unless the law they broke, while they were in said foreign country, is also illegal had it been done while in the United States, and the punishment for violating said law is comparable to what it would be over here.  And even then, only if we have a ratified extradition treaty, which means that the other country must have agreed to a similar provision with their citizens.

That's pretty much the case here, too.

[Gopher Gary]

The US took the concept a bit further than that when they filled Guantanamo in the wake of 9/11. Think about it: A citizen of one foreign country kidnapped in another and imprisoned in a third, supposedly violating US or international laws but never tried before a jury...

Now we just let the UK lock them up in immigrant containment centers. That'll teach them to talk smack about the holocaust. 

It's not just the UK.

They're just the only ones in the EU with no laws governing how long they can be imprisoned without deportation or release. 

[Gopher Gary]

But he said he didn't mean to claim that it was the Mufti that convinced him, when it's exactly what he meant at the time.  He threw enough mud though.  He did it to make European nationalists believe that he and Israel are on their side, when in fact they despise any goyim. 

He was passing the blame to another ethnicity and blur the responsibility which falls under point 5 of Working definition of Holocaust Denial and Distortion, so does that not mean that countries with the Holocaust laws should be asking for him to be sent there for trial?  Either way, it makes him a "Holocaust Denier".

I'm not going to pretend like I know what he meant to say, I'm just saying he retracted the statement and clarified what he claims to have meant. Saying he should be charged or tried according to the laws of other countries is pointless unless he actually does it while in those countries. 

That's fine, i've just read and seen enough to know what he means, and what he doesn't mean.  Ernst Zundel got deported to Germany to stand trial for alleged previous crimes, but I am not sure if he'd done it while in Germany, or just because it's his homeland.

From what I'm reading about the laws that actually apply to him, it doesn't even matter what he means. You're exhausting to me to try to have conversations like this. Jurisdiction and citizenship are huge factors in attempts to extradite people. Germany can't extradite me because I'm over here doing stuff that would be against the law over there. I'm a US citizen in the US so it's okay if I'm breaking German laws that don't apply to me because I'm not doing it there. 

Benji is confused by the law.

An added twist, the US won't extradite any citizen to a foreign country unless the law they broke, while they were in said foreign country, is also illegal had it been done while in the United States, and the punishment for violating said law is comparable to what it would be over here.  And even then, only if we have a ratified extradition treaty, which means that the other country must have agreed to a similar provision with their citizens.

That's pretty much the case here, too.

It's like that everywhere, but I think it doesn't even matter. Maybe I misunderstood why some german guy was brought up, but I understood it as a suggestion that this guy should be extradited to some country where he's not a citizen for breaking their laws while he wasn't even in their country. Even if all the treaty details are in place, that's not how it works. 

[benjimanbreeg]

...So he wouldn't need to be deported anyway.  Yeah I get that, I was just wondering if these Holocaust Laws are an exception. 

I just don't see how his statements broke that law. What he said was a statement that shifts blame away from the Nazis. Some countries have laws against statements like that, but It doesn't appear Israel is one of them.

Yeah good point.

I just thought odeon was making a joke about something I said in another thread, about people talking about things that other people aren't talking about. 

It shouldn't do, but it does.  Shifting the blame to another group or nation and blurring responsibility comes under the Working definition of Holocaust Denial and Distortion, so do you think an Israeli Arab would get away with saying it in Israel?  Hell, Deborah Lipstadt even had it down that saying Germans suffered during WWII was part of Holocaust Denial. 

[benjimanbreeg]

But he said he didn't mean to claim that it was the Mufti that convinced him, when it's exactly what he meant at the time.  He threw enough mud though.  He did it to make European nationalists believe that he and Israel are on their side, when in fact they despise any goyim. 

He was passing the blame to another ethnicity and blur the responsibility which falls under point 5 of Working definition of Holocaust Denial and Distortion, so does that not mean that countries with the Holocaust laws should be asking for him to be sent there for trial?  Either way, it makes him a "Holocaust Denier".

I'm not going to pretend like I know what he meant to say, I'm just saying he retracted the statement and clarified what he claims to have meant. Saying he should be charged or tried according to the laws of other countries is pointless unless he actually does it while in those countries. 

That's fine, i've just read and seen enough to know what he means, and what he doesn't mean.  Ernst Zundel got deported to Germany to stand trial for alleged previous crimes, but I am not sure if he'd done it while in Germany, or just because it's his homeland.

From what I'm reading about the laws that actually apply to him, it doesn't even matter what he means. You're exhausting to me to try to have conversations like this. Jurisdiction and citizenship are huge factors in attempts to extradite people. Germany can't extradite me because I'm over here doing stuff that would be against the law over there. I'm a US citizen in the US so it's okay if I'm breaking German laws that don't apply to me because I'm not doing it there. 

Benji is confused by the law.

An added twist, the US won't extradite any citizen to a foreign country unless the law they broke, while they were in said foreign country, is also illegal had it been done while in the United States, and the punishment for violating said law is comparable to what it would be over here.  And even then, only if we have a ratified extradition treaty, which means that the other country must have agreed to a similar provision with their citizens.

I'm confused by Holocau$t laws. 

[benjimanbreeg]

But he said he didn't mean to claim that it was the Mufti that convinced him, when it's exactly what he meant at the time.  He threw enough mud though.  He did it to make European nationalists believe that he and Israel are on their side, when in fact they despise any goyim. 

He was passing the blame to another ethnicity and blur the responsibility which falls under point 5 of Working definition of Holocaust Denial and Distortion, so does that not mean that countries with the Holocaust laws should be asking for him to be sent there for trial?  Either way, it makes him a "Holocaust Denier".

I'm not going to pretend like I know what he meant to say, I'm just saying he retracted the statement and clarified what he claims to have meant. Saying he should be charged or tried according to the laws of other countries is pointless unless he actually does it while in those countries. 

That's fine, i've just read and seen enough to know what he means, and what he doesn't mean.  Ernst Zundel got deported to Germany to stand trial for alleged previous crimes, but I am not sure if he'd done it while in Germany, or just because it's his homeland.

From what I'm reading about the laws that actually apply to him, it doesn't even matter what he means. You're exhausting to me to try to have conversations like this. Jurisdiction and citizenship are huge factors in attempts to extradite people. Germany can't extradite me because I'm over here doing stuff that would be against the law over there. I'm a US citizen in the US so it's okay if I'm breaking German laws that don't apply to me because I'm not doing it there. 

Benji is confused by the law.

An added twist, the US won't extradite any citizen to a foreign country unless the law they broke, while they were in said foreign country, is also illegal had it been done while in the United States, and the punishment for violating said law is comparable to what it would be over here.  And even then, only if we have a ratified extradition treaty, which means that the other country must have agreed to a similar provision with their citizens.

That's pretty much the case here, too.

It's like that everywhere, but I think it doesn't even matter. Maybe I misunderstood why some german guy was brought up, but I understood it as a suggestion that this guy should be extradited to some country where he's not a citizen for breaking their laws while he wasn't even in their country. Even if all the treaty details are in place, that's not how it works. 

I was just wondering if there are special circumstances for this particular subject.  Say Abbas or someone from Hamas had said that a Jew made Hitler kill people, what do you think would happen to them?

[Gopher Gary]

I don't know of any in particular, but yeah, there's probably special circumstances, though maybe not legal ones. If Abbas said it, it would depend on the laws of where he said it. Same if Obama said it. Like hyke said, as a political leader he will still have to deal with the political ramifications, even if the didn't break any laws. 

[benjimanbreeg]

I don't know of any in particular, but yeah, there's probably special circumstances, though maybe not legal ones. If Abbas said it, it would depend on the laws of where he said it. Same if Obama said it. Like hyke said, as a political leader he will still have to deal with the political ramifications, even if the didn't break any laws. 

If Abbas said it while in Israel? 

[Gopher Gary]

We've already talked about the laws in Israel. There may be some fine print in the laws that I don't know about regarding shifting blame, but on the surface it looks like anyone could say that in Israel. 

[benjimanbreeg]

We've already talked about the laws in Israel. There may be some fine print in the laws that I don't know about regarding shifting blame, but on the surface it looks like anyone could say that in Israel. 

Shifting the blame is part of Holocaust Denial, supposedly. 

[Gopher Gary]

*sigh*

['andersom']

We've already talked about the laws in Israel. There may be some fine print in the laws that I don't know about regarding shifting blame, but on the surface it looks like anyone could say that in Israel. 

Shifting the blame is part of Holocaust Denial, supposedly.

Supposedly? Can you be more specific?

[benjimanbreeg]

We've already talked about the laws in Israel. There may be some fine print in the laws that I don't know about regarding shifting blame, but on the surface it looks like anyone could say that in Israel. 

Shifting the blame is part of Holocaust Denial, supposedly.

Supposedly? Can you be more specific?

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-holocaust-denial-and-distortion

Yes, it comes under Holocaust Denial according to the Holocaust Industry.  In Deborah Lipstadt's book, she even claims that acknowledging Germans suffered is part of Holocaust Denial. 

['andersom']

Bibi would fit point 5 of the Holocaust distortion list.