I hate callouts but here it is. Jack

[sg1008]

one way to understand it is to think of society in terms of spaces, and there being white spaces and black spaces.

It's the most fucked up understnadnng I've evefr hreaerd.

Thats kind of the point. It's fucked up.

[sg1008]

Jack, in case you don't know, I appreciate you and am thankful for the time we spent in this call out. I am sorry if I ever unknowingly mislead you. Its not my intention to.

[Jack]

I appreciate you too, SG, and also sorry for offending you. Have never before felt the need to discuss racial issues here because I'm at a point in my life were I don't think about it much, and it doesn't matter to me very much because people around me don't make it matter. You made it matter, and from a vantage point of white people I don't commonly feel the need to defend. I think I've been so defensive toward you because you've said some things I find not only divisive, but also things racist and demeaning toward people I care about. The thing that bothered me the most was that it was being presented as an intelligent rationale. Am a big proponent of free speech, and understand some racists are that way because they have baggage too, and they should be free to come out with it. I prefer to face the loud bigot than the covert one. I like racism blatant and hateful so it can't be sneaky or denied, and when I say bigoted crap I just say bigoted crap without any attempt to cover up the smell. Thank you for making clear your actual intention. I'm thinking about the Freeman video Sir Les' posted, and Freeman is right. Stop talking about it. I think I should go back to doing that.

[sg1008]

I don't know Freeman personally, but from what he said, I highly doubt he meant stop talking about altogether. What I got from it is, stop talking about black history as if it is separate from colonial history. The story of slavery, abolition, jim crow, segregation, and discrimination is all of our stories and everyone should talk about as american history, not as special history. The same with native histories, or at the very least the history of natives to the locale of our states and towns ought to be known, and should not be delegated to a month, or a special studies course, but is something that should be blended with regular instruction.

We HAVE to talk about things that are real, otherwise they are not going to change, or get worse. Or, we are going to do things unmindful of their actual meaning, like make an Indian mascot with no idea why "redskins" is hurtful.

Talking about racism is not supposed to be comfortable....its disquieting, but change is disquieting. I don't make race matter, society does. The news does. The government does. The people who treat me and my family badly do.

[sg1008]

Look, you say you don't have to think about racism and I am not challenging you. That's your personal experience. In the same way, discrimination is a real and personal experience for many people. The same as autie discrimination. If one person never had to think about being autie, and another person got beat up a lot for it, do you think that the person who got beat up should never rant? should never talk about it? should never ask why? should never advocate for more protection? should never challenge the attitudes which lead them to be seen as different and a punching bag in the first place? Do you think that other person who did not experience discrimination has grounds to call the autie who is angry and upset at society an "ableist" for their feelings?

Thats how I feel you react when anyone brings up racism. You can have your experiences, but you are in no position to discount another persons experiences, or decide that because they want to talk about something that they are racist.

[Jack]

Not really saying you should stop talking about it, just me. Sure I have to think about it, just not a lot, I've no need to spend lots of time thinking or talking about it. It's a tiring subject I don't like discussing, and I think people's minds are probably set in one direction or the other, so too much talk probably only stirs tensions; I know it does mine, and while I've had some extreme mindset changes about race, ranting never achieved that for me. You have a point about the history, and I think you're right. I was thinking about it today trying to get why the things you say come across so differently to me than you intend them. I think the largest part is simply the generalization being all us or them bad guys and good guys, but I also think a big part of it is the history. That's what makes the rationale so intelligent. There's no white who can deny the fact of history and some horrible history lead society to where it is today. It's similar to when some whites drag up crime statistics to use them to make a bigoted statement into an intelligent rationale about all blacks; I know crime stat arguments are intellectual dishonesty, just like I know blacks aren't slaves. Dragging up history when trying to address current problems, makes those problems to now be problems of the children of slaves and the children of slave owners, and I think it can come across as a clever bigoted approach.

[Jack]

It's a tiring subject I don't like discussing

Actually that's not true; maybe just don't like it when it and offence/defense us/them, or debate type discussion; when it's relaxed and personal can enjoy it a lot.

[sg1008]

Not really if you consider the creation of black ghettos (which exist today) and how that harks back to us being freed and unwanted. And how white flight was orchestrated by companies paying black people to push strollers through white neighborhoods and call peoples number pretending its a wrong number so the residents would feel their neighborhood was becoming black and sell their homes for cheap. Those companies would then buy the homes and jack the prices back up for black buyers. And how hospitals situated themselves near to ghettos so that medical students would have easy access to black cadavers. And how police brutality followed the black migrations, when our state governments brought racist cops from the south to the areas out west to control them. Yesterday and today are very closely related.

And I don't bring it up all the time. I rant, especially when it is in the news. People respond, and a long conversation is carried on. But I post plenty of other topics that people can carry on about, they just don't seem to be as hot button as race, or perhaps most have an agreeing perspective so there is not much to carry on about.

You can have your feelings about who I am or why I do things, and I pay attention to the feedback if you haven't noticed. But I also know what is real, and that I am not a bigot for perceiving and pointing out inequalities. If your friends are so offended, they can talk to me themselves. You don't need to act like you have to defend them because I do not know them, nor am I ever attacking them. You live in Florida? Heck, they could be my relatives. So they can approach me and we can get to know each other and they can tell me what they feel.

But in all honesty, I am less concerned about your friends (who are not here) than I am about someone here who I know and care about. For instance, what Odeon pointed out to me, that went straight to my heart, because I know him and I trust that if he is feeling guilty about something then that means I need to watch my language and think of ways of saying things that are more open to involvement of others. This is why these issues need to be discussed because the language and understanding around them can become very polarised. And that polarisation is the very thing Freeman, and even DrMLKjr were pointing out...that polarisation is something I have become very familiar with, especially since I have first been here.

Bottom line- when you point out things, I care about what YOU are feeling, and if I perceive you misunderstand something I try to explain that is not what I meant- beyond that I cannot help if you continue to react to something I did not mean. I also make a point to change my language for the next time since I know what bothers you. But when you bring up friends of yours, I would be a fool to change my language based on someone I don't know and their hypothetical feelings.

If I see something a certain way I'll up and say it...and most of the time I will not give details about my personal friendships and experiences. My conversation will almost ALWAYS go straight to "how can society be improved", or "why is society messed up", not "how can I resolve this specific xyz issue". When something happens I am not asking all white people to explain why that happened as if I am accusing them or whatever. That does not even cross my mind. I am looking at society and wanting to figure out how it could be better. And in that I will bring up history, culture, policy, whatever. This is me trying to understand the world. If your friends are offended by THAT, if you think THAT is bigotry, then fine. As far as I am concerned I am not killing anyone, calling names, or starting a white hate group, or even encouraging hate for any race. I am not even starting a black is beautiful thread. I am talking about societal issues from a perspective I am familiar.

Segregation isn't just a race issue anyways, and I never put on a thread: THIS IS FOR BLACK PEOPLE ONLY. Bloody hell, anyone could chime in and talk about the poor white neighborhoods, and economic segregation, and appalachian discrimination. Those real issues to get into, and they have everything to do with race and culture. I don't prevent that from happening. I just speak from the vantage that I have. And all I have is all I have. I cant have every POV offered on a plate. That is for others to contribute. Just because I have my own experience does NOT make me a bigot.

[Jack]

It makes me think of couples who argue about something, and bring up every bad that ever happened the relationship in the process, none of which is a dialog toward achieving a solutions to the current problem, so we might just have to agree to disagree about throwing painful history around. Didn't mean to imply I actually have any friends; I don't and haven't in a very long time. I do have family members who react like odeon did, feeling guilty for things they simply haven't done, and would never say anything at all to defend themselves in a conversation where whites are generalized in negative terms, for fear of being called racist. You don't have to care about them, or that I felt hurt for them. Also have family members who would rail against it refusing to have anyone's guilt thrown at their feet, and also family members who are bigoted for reasons of legitimate baggage which I'm willing to be understanding of. I've also realized I can pay more attention to the words I use, as you've gotten the impression my response has been to try to deny the existence of racism and oppression in the structure of society, and that is never a message would want to send. Just prefer to give some credit to the individuals who don't fit the negative stereotype of an given group. There's definitely something to be said for fighting the negative, but also something to be said rewarding the positive, and good and bad people know no social boundaries. Good talk, SG.