baltimore (and everywhere else)

[sg1008]

It was my mantra in Florida:

That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.

Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.

For some reason thought we lived in the same city.

We lived just outside of Orlando.
Far enough out that when I sat in our backyard the neighbor came running to ask if I belonged there.
Far enough out that when I put my wallet down while I was paying for my purchase at CVS a woman reached around me and grabbed my wallet. I took it back. She said she was just making sure it was mine.
Or right after walking out of the store, receipt in hand, with the suitcase I had just purchased and a temp stood in my way to ask if I had purchased the suitcase.
I've gone into stores and had four or five different people ask me if I needed help. I usually don't let it get to that number. Around about the third one I say "Yes, could you tell all the other people in the store who are going to ask if I need help that I would like to  be left alone to shop?"
One of my favorites from the Orlando area was when I was at the airport and picked up my bag at baggage claim and a woman stood in my way and said, "Are you sure that's yours?" My bag was a heck of a lot nicer than hers. I have a penchant for high quality.

My ex didn't believe these kinds of things happened until one day she was standing in another part of the store and saw the cashier fairly leap over the counter to intercept me. That was in Massachusetts, where I had another favorite:
My ex was in Filenes Basement and had dragged me along so I was looking at random things. A store clerk was following me but making noise, so finally I turned to her and said, "Look, if you're going to follow me, could you at least be quiet about it?" She got really embarrassed and said loudly "I'm not following you!" and then began to move clothes back and forth on the rack - the same clothes, over and over again. But she stopped following me.
I have favorites from everywhere except New York City, where people know enough to ignore me and target the little old lady with the bulging shopping bag.

One thing I heard recently...is that we can face discrimination all our lives, as long as we don't internalise it, we win. And that there is in this country a thing as "black space" and "white space". Black space is the ghetto, and black people carry the ghetto with them on their skin...so when we enter a white space (which is about everywhere else) it causes conflict. Everywhere there is a black person in a white space people do the math "how did they overcome the ghetto to get there? or are they homeless? or are they a thief from the ghetto".... Hard not to internalise that....every time I visit a university or suburb, or store, I actively try to not look suspicious...I end up spending money places just because I don't want them to think I am homeless.

[Jack]

It was my mantra in Florida:

That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.

Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.

For some reason thought we lived in the same city.

We lived just outside of Orlando.
Far enough out that when I sat in our backyard the neighbor came running to ask if I belonged there.
Far enough out that when I put my wallet down while I was paying for my purchase at CVS a woman reached around me and grabbed my wallet. I took it back. She said she was just making sure it was mine.
Or right after walking out of the store, receipt in hand, with the suitcase I had just purchased and a temp stood in my way to ask if I had purchased the suitcase.
I've gone into stores and had four or five different people ask me if I needed help. I usually don't let it get to that number. Around about the third one I say "Yes, could you tell all the other people in the store who are going to ask if I need help that I would like to  be left alone to shop?"
One of my favorites from the Orlando area was when I was at the airport and picked up my bag at baggage claim and a woman stood in my way and said, "Are you sure that's yours?" My bag was a heck of a lot nicer than hers. I have a penchant for high quality.

My ex didn't believe these kinds of things happened until one day she was standing in another part of the store and saw the cashier fairly leap over the counter to intercept me. That was in Massachusetts, where I had another favorite:
My ex was in Filenes Basement and had dragged me along so I was looking at random things. A store clerk was following me but making noise, so finally I turned to her and said, "Look, if you're going to follow me, could you at least be quiet about it?" She got really embarrassed and said loudly "I'm not following you!" and then began to move clothes back and forth on the rack - the same clothes, over and over again. But she stopped following me.
I have favorites from everywhere except New York City, where people know enough to ignore me and target the little old lady with the bulging shopping bag.

Was making an observation that my perspective is very different. That difference is due to never before living in an integrated area. Grew up in a place where I only ever knew of two other families that weren't white, not only in the town but also the other surrounding towns. After that lived in a place where the only non whites were poor non-English speaking Hispanics. Florida attracts every brand of peoples, not only from all over the country and non-whites simply aren't some novelty who only fit into one classification within the community. Still stand by the statement of where I live as the most integrated and tolerant environment ever lived in, and the first time ever having peers who aren't white. Wasn't really trying to imply florida is free from racism, or you haven't encountered it. Though fine, we won't discuss it, and can talk about favorites instead. Will leave the favorites to the gopher. Never having non-white peers in life made it easy to fall into the self loathing victim mentality, and spent all but the last 8 or 9 years of life blaming other people's racism for every difficulty ever encountered. It was always everyone else and not me. My social problems have always been blamed as other people's problems. Moving to an integrated area didn't help that at all, due to not only being put upon by the racism of whites, but the racism of every race. They're all a bunch of bigots and segregate themselves while blaming each other for what they do to themselves. Then an interesting thing happened, I started reading autism forums, and for the first time in my life was faced with the realization that maybe it's really just me. That's not to say none of it is racism, but unless it's blatant I simply don't jump to assume it is anymore, I don't actively seek it as a rationale, and have learned to take some level of accountability in how people react to me.

[Jack]

Not a place I will ever set foot if I can help it...unless I'm suicidal.

Maybe one day the state of Florida won't possess such a powerful and personal victory over you. In the meantime, probably best to stay put in those safe states free of racism.

[Gopher Gary]

We lived just outside of Orlando.
Far enough out that when I sat in our backyard the neighbor came running to ask if I belonged there.
Far enough out that when I put my wallet down while I was paying for my purchase at CVS a woman reached around me and grabbed my wallet. I took it back. She said she was just making sure it was mine.
Or right after walking out of the store, receipt in hand, with the suitcase I had just purchased and a temp stood in my way to ask if I had purchased the suitcase.
I've gone into stores and had four or five different people ask me if I needed help. I usually don't let it get to that number. Around about the third one I say "Yes, could you tell all the other people in the store who are going to ask if I need help that I would like to  be left alone to shop?"
One of my favorites from the Orlando area was when I was at the airport and picked up my bag at baggage claim and a woman stood in my way and said, "Are you sure that's yours?" My bag was a heck of a lot nicer than hers. I have a penchant for high quality.

My ex didn't believe these kinds of things happened until one day she was standing in another part of the store and saw the cashier fairly leap over the counter to intercept me. That was in Massachusetts, where I had another favorite:
My ex was in Filenes Basement and had dragged me along so I was looking at random things. A store clerk was following me but making noise, so finally I turned to her and said, "Look, if you're going to follow me, could you at least be quiet about it?" She got really embarrassed and said loudly "I'm not following you!" and then began to move clothes back and forth on the rack - the same clothes, over and over again. But she stopped following me.
I have favorites from everywhere except New York City, where people know enough to ignore me and target the little old lady with the bulging shopping bag.

Come on, you know Orlando ain't some backwoods hickwater town where you're without peers as the only educated dark man trying to mingle among the white folks. Anyway though, yeah I think I get what you're saying. One time I was stopped outside of store, accused of stealing, and ordered to empty my pockets. Even when they realized they had made a mistake they still tried to trick me into saying I had *tried* to steal something. Finally, one of them said the police were there and they'd have to tell them it was a false alarm, then they walked away without apology, didn't say a word, just left me standing there wondering what just happened. At this point in my life, I don't know if that was racist or if I'm my own worst enemy since I don't naturally acknowledge the existence of other people in stores and go out of my way to shop around the store taking the aisles with no people. I'm aware of being watched a lot though, even when I'm with my white guy. I don't know what it is, or why, but it seems like no matter where I go I always have someone fucking staring at me. I just can't say it's always white people doing that to me anymore. Anyway, that's not my favorite though. My all-time most favorite was the time this giant white guy cornered me alone on a balcony. He pressed himself against me with my back against the rail, called me a red nigger and asked me if the kids had lice. I told him to go back inside or I'd flip him off the balcony. He was much bigger than me but also very drunk and I was sober so I was confident I could flip him off that balcony. It was only a second story balcony with grass underneath, so we both knew he's probably be alright. He laughed to let me know he wasn't scared of me, but he also promptly went back inside, lest he have to suffer the embarrassment of some nigger bitch flipping his ass off the balcony. My least favorite was a boy I liked in highschool who never asked me out because his parents wouldn't have approved, but he never would have been so hurtful to admit that to me. So, yeah, I know what it's like for people to assume I'm unintelligent, dirty, dishonest, lazy, unworthy, or whatever. I know what it's like to not have a racial place at all. I also know what it like to blame everyone else in the world for my problems. I know what it's like to deny stereotypes exist for a reason. I also know what it like to accept stereotypes exist for a reason, and to feel ashamed because of those people. I know what it's like to be disgusted by people of color, and to hate them much as any white bigot does because they dare to have the nerve to look like me. I know white people who feel that same disgust and embarrassment for the people who represent the negative stereotype of the redneck racist white man. Do you know what else I know, wolfish? I know what it's like to have the power of knowledge, in knowing racism truly is founded in fear. I know what it's like to use and feed on that fear, which means I know what it's like to take pleasure if making other people afraid of me. Though the victim narrative doesn't really support that level of honesty, does it? I think that's the reason why no one challenged me when I said the rioters were stupid fucking animals.

[sg1008]

Not a place I will ever set foot if I can help it...unless I'm suicidal.

Maybe one day the state of Florida won't possess such a powerful and personal victory over you. In the meantime, probably best to stay put in those safe states free of racism.

Nowhere I know of is free of racism. I just stay away from places that I am likely to get shot or arrested. Florida is a place where being an activist will probably get me killed. Between outlawing feeding the poor, to requiring unconstitutional welfare recipient drug tests, to outlawing policy discussions related to climate change (which we all know adversely affects the poor first), to illegally barring black voters from voting, to refusing justice for murdered black people in the wake of national outrage...I'll end up kidnapped and killed within a year by some KKK cop.

At least in my city where I am, there is a chance I'll survive.

[Jack]

You're extremely racist against whites, SG, and it's so frustrating, and also saddening that you generalize them all from the viewpoint of being out to get you. Wont try to begrudge you the emotion of feeling safer in areas where whites are a minority or pointing to white crime to rationalize that. It's a good reason to feel that way. It's also hard to begrudge white people the same emotions when they don't want to be around blacks and point to black crime to rationalize that. They also have a good reason to feel that way. the Hispanics are the only ones who confuse me, both the people and this country's hatred of them by all other races. Though they do the same. A mexican woman once told me how much she hated blacks and whites, and how she wished everyone looked like 'us'. Told her I think people like her should move back to mexico where everyone looks like her. Can't really tell people they feel wrong, but see myself in a world filled with absurdity and fear rationalized with intellectual dishonesty. Though will admit it's likely true that people are better off and much safer when they segregate themselves, if for no other reason than the lack of friction. Viva la segregation. Maybe I'm just jealous of everyone for having a race at all.

[Gopher Gary]

Not a place I will ever set foot if I can help it...unless I'm suicidal.

Maybe one day the state of Florida won't possess such a powerful and personal victory over you. In the meantime, probably best to stay put in those safe states free of racism.

Nowhere I know of is free of racism. I just stay away from places that I am likely to get shot or arrested. Florida is a place where being an activist will probably get me killed. Between outlawing feeding the poor, to requiring unconstitutional welfare recipient drug tests, to outlawing policy discussions related to climate change (which we all know adversely affects the poor first), to illegally barring black voters from voting, to refusing justice for murdered black people in the wake of national outrage...I'll end up kidnapped and killed within a year by some KKK cop.

At least in my city where I am, there is a chance I'll survive.

The most hurtful and harmful racism I've ever endured came from within my own family.  It wasn't even really that bad. Florida has been very good for me. I'm really only scared of the jellyfish. 

['andersom']

Fear it is. It gets dangerous when those in fear have power, either in official power or in power of moving masses.

[WolFish]

I don't know what to say, Wolfish. People are cunts, generally speaking, but apparently more so in some places than in others.

True, but even in those places there are little havens like the clinic where the receptionist genuinely liked me, and the seventh day adventist store that had all manner of people working there. No one ever followed me and the only people who approached me did so when I was clearly wandering up and down aisles looking for something. I went there on a regular basis, as much for solace as for some of the best supplements I've found anywhere.

['andersom']

Had this terrified neighbour for years. She barely dared coming outside, so I did her garden. Over the years she ventured out a bit more, and talked somewhat to me.
She was very racist against almost everyone with black hair, or otherwise foreign. But, out of every group she pointed at, she also had this one exception; a really nice Turkish man, a truly reliable Surinam lady, a pleasant Antillean shopkeeper etc. Still she thought everyone should return to the country they came from.
The most she hated people of mixed blood, because there was no place they could be sent to. She thought they all needed to be killed. When I asked if she really thought my husband and kids needed to be killed, she said that that indeed had to happen.
Then I told her that she should start with her own grandson and left.

[WolFish]

You're extremely racist against whites, SG, and it's so frustrating, and also saddening that you generalize them all from the viewpoint of being out to get you. Wont try to begrudge you the emotion of feeling safer in areas where whites are a minority or pointing to white crime to rationalize that. It's a good reason to feel that way. It's also hard to begrudge white people the same emotions when they don't want to be around blacks and point to black crime to rationalize that. They also have a good reason to feel that way. the Hispanics are the only ones who confuse me, both the people and this country's hatred of them by all other races. Though they do the same. A mexican woman once told me how much she hated blacks and whites, and how she wished everyone looked like 'us'. Told her I think people like her should move back to mexico where everyone looks like her. Can't really tell people they feel wrong, but see myself in a world filled with absurdity and fear rationalized with intellectual dishonesty. Though will admit it's likely true that people are better off and much safer when they segregate themselves, if for no other reason than the lack of friction. Viva la segregation. Maybe I'm just jealous of everyone for having a race at all.

These are quite a lot of assumptions.
Oh well.
I've found that it's not useful to try to change someone's mind unless they're interested.
I feel quite safe in Montreal because our neighborhood is truly mixed - no one gives me a second glance unless I go to one of the neighborhoods that's not truly mixed.
Sure, it sucks, but I have my safe places. I have my autism safe places as well.
Cultural diversity is complicated - much more complicated than race, racism or any of the other differences we have constructed to create divisions. So you shouldn't be jealous; it's all artificial. We all come from the same tribe in Africa.
I am not afraid of death but I don't want to die for stupid reasons such as failing to understand that there are people in the world whose right to shoot me for racists reasons is protected. The stories I tell are my signs.

[WolFish]

Had this terrified neighbour for years. She barely dared coming outside, so I did her garden. Over the years she ventured out a bit more, and talked somewhat to me.
She was very racist against almost everyone with black hair, or otherwise foreign. But, out of every group she pointed at, she also had this one exception; a really nice Turkish man, a truly reliable Surinam lady, a pleasant Antillean shopkeeper etc. Still she thought everyone should return to the country they came from.
The most she hated people of mixed blood, because there was no place they could be sent to. She thought they all needed to be killed. When I asked if she really thought my husband and kids needed to be killed, she said that that indeed had to happen.
Then I told her that she should start with her own grandson and left.

I've met a couple of people like that. Best story: When I was a fundamentalist I was in a D&D group that comprised members of the church. The leader told me, out of the blue and in front of everyone else, that if someone came through killing all black people he would give me up so that he wouldn't have to worry about his family. Fundamentalists were some of the worst hypocrites I've met.

[Jack]

These are quite a lot of assumptions.
Oh well.
I've found that it's not useful to try to change someone's mind unless they're interested.
I feel quite safe in Montreal because our neighborhood is truly mixed - no one gives me a second glance unless I go to one of the neighborhoods that's not truly mixed.
Sure, it sucks, but I have my safe places. I have my autism safe places as well.
Cultural diversity is complicated - much more complicated than race, racism or any of the other differences we have constructed to create divisions. So you shouldn't be jealous; it's all artificial. We all come from the same tribe in Africa.
I am not afraid of death but I don't want to die for stupid reasons such as failing to understand that there are people in the world whose right to shoot me for racists reasons is protected. The stories I tell are my signs.

It's not assumptions when SG has made it clear before that he prefers a black community free of the intrusion of whites. Change my mind about what? Have already lived the life of the perpetual victim in a world of perpetrators, and my mind has since been changed. Don't really feel safer now living in a mixed community, feel more content with that blending in and among people who are accustomed to being around people who are different. Would never be interested in returning to mid-west red neck klan country, not because of fearing for my life, but simply not caring for the quality of people. Am more likely to be murdered here than where I grew up, but that's just statistics and nothing to do with race. Don't tell me it's superficial that I have no race. Will say the same thing about you as said about SG; yes, racial tension and segregation is real but people prefer segregate themselves, and at least when you walk into a segregated room you know where to sit. I sit with the white people, because that's where I've found the most acceptance in life.

['andersom']

I don't know what to say, Wolfish. People are cunts, generally speaking, but apparently more so in some places than in others.

True, but even in those places there are little havens like the clinic where the receptionist genuinely liked me, and the seventh day adventist store that had all manner of people working there. No one ever followed me and the only people who approached me did so when I was clearly wandering up and down aisles looking for something. I went there on a regular basis, as much for solace as for some of the best supplements I've found anywhere.

Health, the natural way, is almost part of doctrine of the SDA. May be worth finding out if Montreal has an SDA shop too.

['andersom']

@ Jack,

I think segregation is part of human nature. People somehow cuddle together in their own group, that they perceive as best. It gets worse when fear of the other groups gets stronger. And worse when some of the groups has more power than the other groups, also about those other groups.

Your way out of the racism thoughts in your head was a personal one. Telling nothing about what sociologically is a reality. But it did liberate you in your head. It gave you personal freedom. I will not dispute that, nor make that smaller than it is. It is a great thing to have.

It does not take away the reality of there being lots of people targeted as second class citizens; because of race, origin, history, social layer, religion or what ever.
When SG wrote about a neighbourhood being taken over, it made me think about modern neighbourhood improvement programs. Put in creative students in a neighbourhood with a bad name. Let them do some community work in exchange for lower rents. Get some fashionable restaurants in that neighbourhood. And other people will come in. The bad vibe of the area will disappear. And things will get better. So far, so good. But then the area grades up, becomes a place people want to live, because it is trendy, rents and the prices of houses go up, more expensive shops come in. And it becomes unaffordable to live in for a lot of the original inhabitants. And they have to move. Not only losing their house, but also the social setting they lived in, so, losing their social network.

Wolfie and SG tell things from their lives that show a social injustice. You show a psychological liberation. That is not a liberation on a sociological level, but it has freed you and given you space to be who you are. What I read from Wolfie and SG, they have a similar psychological freedom, but they are very aware of the social setting they live in and are determined by in their daily life too. And it is something that needs to be targeted and needs to be seen. Segregation will happen. People are different and will flock together in groups they feel secure in. But it should not come with such stigmatisation nor such differences in power.