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Author Topic: Sensitive?  (Read 1394 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2015, 04:08:05 PM »
Actually, SG, what the Bible teaches is some pretty nasty stuff. The latter part tried to soften the message somewhat but all in all, I am destined to burn if the book is to be believed, and so are most others.

But I don't mind because I think it's just a book and an inconsistent one at that, and what we do matters now.

I haven't actually read the bible.
Just bits n pieces. I read it like I read the Iliad...some really nice parts, some parts I look at and think "dagg".

Definitely not to be read by anyone who takes things literally.
If one takes it literally or not, there's no escaping the most basic fundamental teaching. One must accept Christ as their only salvation and ask him for forgiveness in order to gain entry into heaven.

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #61 on: May 14, 2015, 04:16:25 PM »
Actually, SG, what the Bible teaches is some pretty nasty stuff. The latter part tried to soften the message somewhat but all in all, I am destined to burn if the book is to be believed, and so are most others.

But I don't mind because I think it's just a book and an inconsistent one at that, and what we do matters now.

I haven't actually read the bible.
Just bits n pieces. I read it like I read the Iliad...some really nice parts, some parts I look at and think "dagg".

Definitely not to be read by anyone who takes things literally.
If one takes it literally or not, there's no escaping the most basic fundamental teaching. One must accept Christ as their only salvation and ask him for forgiveness in order to gain entry into heaven.

Even that can be circumvented. :P



God, and human made in god's image makes sense to me. As long as it is also the other way around.
The way a group of people has their deity tells what they see in humanity. Nothing human strange to the divine. From love to wrath, it is all there.
Theology and anthropology are closely linked.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #62 on: May 14, 2015, 04:17:49 PM »
Even that can be circumvented. :P
How so?

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2015, 04:23:54 PM »
If one takes it literally or not, there's no escaping the most basic fundamental teaching. One must accept Christ as their only salvation and ask him for forgiveness in order to gain entry into heaven.

Even that can be circumvented. :P


I'll elaborate a bit.
There is this explanation. People strive to do good; and find that things go amiss anyway, no matter how hard they try. Bad luck, accidents, unforeseen reactions on actions. So, there are people ending with a sense of guilt. Guilt that can't be atoned for, that can't be undone by making up for what went wrong. This guilt can paralyse people, because of the fear of fucking up again.
That is where forgiveness enters; to make starting again, with renewed courage, possible.

Forgiveness as the psychological, and sociological tool. Consolation, and encouraging.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2015, 04:28:25 PM »
Even that can be circumvented. :P
How so?

The percentage of atheist people in the main church of my country is pretty high. Also among ministers (and yes, they are open about that). So, they found ways to circumvent that.

It is mainly found in people over 40 though, the newer generation is more influenced by the emotional belief systems influenced by USA evangelical movements. The church is growing more literal here, I think.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2015, 04:35:14 PM »
Was talking about the holy bible in reference to Odeon's statement about his destiny if the bible is to be believed, and he's correct. Faith and salvation in Christ is the key point and most fundamental teaching of Christianity. Not aware of any way of circumventing that. If there are atheist out there, who believe they're going to a Christian heaven which they don't believe exist, by circumventing faith in Christ in order to get there, then that's very funny.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 04:37:40 PM by Jack »

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #66 on: May 14, 2015, 04:49:43 PM »
Was talking about the holy bible in reference to Odeon's statement about his destiny if the bible is to be believed, and he's correct. Faith and salvation in Christ is the key point and most fundamental teaching of Christianity. Not aware of any way of circumventing that. If there are atheist out there, who believe they're going to a Christian heaven which they don't believe exist, by circumventing faith in Christ in order to get there, then that's very funny.

It is then not believing in a Christian heaven or Christian salvation. But about using the community and the spiritual language.

Not that different from the older Calvinistic teachings, where nothing you do on earth can make you earn afterlife, so the only thing you can focus on is life here and now. Lutherans in teaching also focus on the life here and now. And that is a strong trend in Western European protestantism. Complete with work ethic, not to earn a place in heaven, but as a way of thanksgiving.

But, as I said, the influences from USA evangelicalism is growing fast. Religion is more and more changing into emotion mongering. With some weird fears now and then. And with it, for me the spiritual bit is not visible anymore. Where I can see that in the atheist version of Calvinism.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2015, 04:55:14 PM »
Have always liked the Calvinists, as they believe in a pre-determined ending with a sovereign deity, so yes no reason for them in actually trying to do anything to achieve an end. Though there's a few branches of Christianity which believe in a similar way, believing they are among the pre-determined chosen, though that belief doesn't come at the expense, exception, or circumvention of faith and salvation through Christ. It's just a different interpretation of the same fundamental teaching, with the difference being determinism vs free will.

Offline sg1008

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2015, 08:47:26 PM »
On sin and forgiveness, from the Iliad...

Achilles was angry at Agamemnon and threatening to leave the war, but Phoenix has this to say:

"Now, therefore, I say battle with your pride and beat it; cherish not your anger for ever; the might and majesty of heaven are more than ours, but even heaven may be appeased; and if a man has sinned he prays the gods, and reconciles them to himself by his piteous cries and by frankincense, with drink-offerings and the savour of burnt sacrifice. For prayers are as daughters to great Jove; halt, wrinkled, with eyes askance, they follow in the footsteps of sin, who, being fierce and fleet of foot, leaves them far behind him, and ever baneful to mankind outstrips them even to the ends of the world; but nevertheless the prayers come hobbling and healing after. If a man has pity upon these daughters of Jove when they draw near him, they will bless him and hear him too when he is praying; but if he deny them and will not listen to them, they go to Jove the son of Saturn and pray that he may presently fall into sin- to his ruing bitterly hereafter. Therefore, Achilles, give these daughters of Jove due reverence, and bow before them as all good men will bow. Were not the son of Atreus offering you gifts and promising others later- if he were still furious and implacable- I am not he that would bid you throw off your anger and help the Achaeans, no matter how great their need; but he is giving much now, and more hereafter; he has sent his captains to urge his suit, and has chosen those who of all the Argives are most acceptable to you; make not then their words and their coming to be of none effect. Your anger has been righteous so far. We have heard in song how heroes of old time quarrelled when they were roused to fury, but still they could be won by gifts, and fair words could soothe them. "

(in book 9)

I really like the illustration of prayers and sin both being the daughters of Jove, and prayers always running after sin...but then if opportunities for prayers are ignored, the idea that your punishment will be to be more and more driven to sin...i feel it speaks to something profound about the human experience of doing right and doing unjustly...and how being continually unjust is in and of itself a punishment.... and it also speaks to a perspective common in west africa and apparently in the medditteranean, that we don't consider how god will be based on our actions, but that when we see how god is, it should be a guiding principle for us. if god can be humbled, if the sun can rely on something, then why not us? how can our pride or anger be bigger than a gods? if god can bend, then how much easier should it be for us to bend? etc...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 08:53:38 PM by sg1008 »
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2015, 09:41:51 PM »
that was well thought out SG, thanks for the input I enjoyed it...

For myself it is about a 180 degree turn as in change, for me my faith has been the anchor by which I have grown...The God that I know isn't pushy but when sought out is there...

Putting myself in a place to become better regardless of my faith, putting the work into staying well has given a lot of folks hope...

for example in bible study recently I gave my testimony and a mom came up crying to me 'Your story has given me hope' and at the end of the day it isn't about me...it's about helping others along the way...

You'd be surprised how common cutting is everywhere (hardly anyone talks about in it church) so if my story offers hope then I am truly joyful...

I'm not impressed with me if that makes sense, and as I've spoken with others they don't care how healed I am, but if I was broken enough to relate to them as to offer them some hope that yes you can become well when you choose to be...

Offline odeon

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2015, 10:01:02 AM »
Actually, SG, what the Bible teaches is some pretty nasty stuff. The latter part tried to soften the message somewhat but all in all, I am destined to burn if the book is to be believed, and so are most others.

But I don't mind because I think it's just a book and an inconsistent one at that, and what we do matters now.

Blasphemer :zoinks:

I know. :zoinks:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2015, 10:05:12 AM »
Was talking about the holy bible in reference to Odeon's statement about his destiny if the bible is to be believed, and he's correct. Faith and salvation in Christ is the key point and most fundamental teaching of Christianity. Not aware of any way of circumventing that. If there are atheist out there, who believe they're going to a Christian heaven which they don't believe exist, by circumventing faith in Christ in order to get there, then that's very funny.

Sneaking my way in would be hilarious if it turned out I was wrong.

I could simply pretend I was looking for the loo. I mean, would they rather risk that someone peed at the gates?
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Offline Jack

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2015, 02:53:09 PM »
Was talking about the holy bible in reference to Odeon's statement about his destiny if the bible is to be believed, and he's correct. Faith and salvation in Christ is the key point and most fundamental teaching of Christianity. Not aware of any way of circumventing that. If there are atheist out there, who believe they're going to a Christian heaven which they don't believe exist, by circumventing faith in Christ in order to get there, then that's very funny.

Sneaking my way in would be hilarious if it turned out I was wrong.

I could simply pretend I was looking for the loo. I mean, would they rather risk that someone peed at the gates?
The transcendental loo? :laugh: Have always figured if the bible is true, then am among the pre-determined to be left behind. Don't think it's possible for anyone to choose to believe or disbelieve something. That's simply not the way belief works. Hence my appreciation for the Calvinists.

Offline odeon

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2015, 03:14:48 PM »
I believe in free will in that I believe in randomness. I certainly don't believe in fate if applied to the Bible. That would mean that the whole bloody book was pointless even if true.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Sensitive?
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2015, 03:18:02 PM »
^OTOH, that would also be hilarious. A huge cosmic joke. I'd love it if the Bible had enough truth in it to lure people in to try their utmost, to be good and to be kind, to help those in need, to turn the other cheek. All that.

Only to be met by "sorry, you're not on the list." :rofl:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein