Manipulation

[Skelth]

I'm aware that not all of us here are socially stunted (not that there's anything wrong with that.) While it may not come naturally, I know many of us here have likely studied human behavior extensively... the cues and idiosyncrasies of interaction. And... Something that often follows that course of study when one is intelligent is manipulation.

Whether or not you do it, whatever. I don't know you. I don't claim to know your moral code. (Yes, I do.) But many of us have at least wondered about it, if not studied it.

I am curious to know... Do you partake in manipulation? Why or why not?

And if you do... What are some of your "tricks?"

 

[Calandale]

Sometimes. At one point, I learned the power of anger - whether faked or real.
Sometimes I will boost the appearance of my indignation in order to shock people
into giving me my way. Usually though, I've inoculated those I care for by revealing
this.


I used to be something of a master of deceiving without making outright lies. Long
ago though, I decided that was essentially no better than lying. Now, I don't accept
even letting people believe something that may be in a light skewed in my favor.
Strangely though, I don't apply this standard to others: for example, I won't
point out an obvious scam to a stranger, but merely observe what is going on,
unless I am directly affected.

[Jack]

I am curious to know... Do you partake in manipulation? Why or why not?
And if you do... What are some of your "tricks?"

Answer your own questions.

[Pyraxis]

I do not. I consider manipulation by deception to be morally reprehensible.

[Calandale]

I do not. I consider manipulation by deception to be morally reprehensible.

Manipulation does not require deception of any kind. In truth,
everyone does it to some extent, because every social act
has some degree of manipulation to it.


Like my free will question, I'd say the only real distinguishing feature
is whether someone is aware. The introspective are more likely to be
guilty, simply because they understand why they are taking actions.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

I am curious to know... Do you partake in manipulation? Why or why not?

And if you do... What are some of your "tricks?"

I'm more curious about you. Why did you have such an interest in finding me (Scrap) a few years ago??

Are you someone that I knew IRL??

[Pyraxis]

I do not. I consider manipulation by deception to be morally reprehensible.

Manipulation does not require deception of any kind. In truth,
everyone does it to some extent, because every social act
has some degree of manipulation to it.


Like my free will question, I'd say the only real distinguishing feature
is whether someone is aware. The introspective are more likely to be
guilty, simply because they understand why they are taking actions.

The kind that I think is wrong requires deception. I have no problem with people being aware of why they're taking actions, or deliberately taking actions that will work out to their advantage. That's just being not dumb. But intent to deceive and intent to harm, especially intent to harm through deception, is a quick and dirty way of defining where it starts to become immoral.

[Calandale]

So, harm is a relative thing. For example, I could deceive someone by saying they don't look fat -
which probably does them GOOD, and might serve my purposes (making them feel better about
being around me as well. Most people (though probably not me) would support such a deception,
thinking it perhaps more moral than being honestly harmful.


Another case where no harm is done, is the fake beggar. It may also cause good (feelings of helping). But I think more
people are bothered by this. I certainly would see it as actually immoral.


To me, honesty has always been more of a moral imperative. The only question is whether it was fair
game to deceive WITH honesty - for example playing the expressions to indicate irony when none was
intended.

[Pyraxis]

It is indeed relative. It doesn't do any harm to tell a friend once that they don't look fat, but if you tell your child who looks up to your opinion, over and over, in the name of boosting their self-esteem even though it's not true, then it starts to cause harm. Take it further and it becomes pathological as well as unconscionable.

But nor can you be honest all the time, if you want to get by in society.

What do you mean by playing with irony? Counting on people not picking up the nuances of what you really mean?

[Jack]

I am curious to know... Do you partake in manipulation? Why or why not?
And if you do... What are some of your "tricks?"

Answer your own questions.

More people might be willing to participate if you answer your own questions in addition to asking them of others.

Make my karma zero, Skelth; someone ruined it.

[Calandale]

What do you mean by playing with irony? Counting on people not picking up the nuances of what you really mean?

The opposite. Counting on people to take those social cues as important, when what I say
is what I really mean. It was a technique (not just irony, but that's the easiest to express
as an example) that I used quite often in games like Diplomacy. People learned that I
always held to the letter of what I promised, but that they THOUGHT I was saying other
things - and it ended up hurting me more than someone who would blatantly lie every now
and then. So, I decided to attempt to be honest in spirit as well as words; worked surprisingly
well in a game which is about backstabbing actually - probably better than my prior dissemination.

[Pyraxis]

Oh interesting. Did it hurt you because people came to consider you even less trustworthy than someone who would just lie, or was it another reason?

What made being honest in spirit work out well?

[Calandale]

Oh interesting. Did it hurt you because people came to consider you even less trustworthy than someone who would just lie, or was it another reason?

Quite. I got the reputation for always getting the better of people through careful wording.
Often it would be for quite minor issues that one wouldn't stab for - so people just felt they couldn't
trust anything from me - that somehow I'd twist the intent.

What made being honest in spirit work out well?

Reputation. Certainly very powerful with an established group, but even in
a single play with new folk, I felt I could convince them with how earnestly
I stated that I never lie.


One thing though - it never worked online/PBEM. Whatever I could convey, as well as
my own ability to discern trustworthiness go out the window if I can't read the person.
I'd catch stammers or little hints in a one on one negotiation, and just tell them I don't
trust them.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Quite. I got the reputation for always getting the better of people through careful wording.

You also got the reputation for posting impenetrable, obfuscationist gobbledygook.

[El]

I'm aware that not all of us here are socially stunted (not that there's anything wrong with that.) While it may not come naturally, I know many of us here have likely studied human behavior extensively... the cues and idiosyncrasies of interaction. And... Something that often follows that course of study when one is intelligent is manipulation.

Whether or not you do it, whatever. I don't know you. I don't claim to know your moral code. (Yes, I do.) But many of us have at least wondered about it, if not studied it.

I am curious to know... Do you partake in manipulation? Why or why not?

And if you do... What are some of your "tricks?"

Are you high?