Now listen here, feminism...

[El]

Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.

Why "but," Dex?

Because challenging this gender role is the responsibility of men alone according to many feminists, even though women and men reinforce it.

So you were responding to "many feminists," not to me, then?

Yes.  I know I have a history of making generalizations.

Well, next time, just remember I'm special. 

Honestly, I think one of the productive things that can come not only from debates like this, but also from the original article quoted, is that it *can* make you question what assumptions you're making, what views you have, etc., and it can help you decide if you really want to be operating from that mental set. 

The article and play highlight one of the many still-existing broadly-politically-correct crappy mental sets a lot of people carry around.  The upshot is that if that play (or even the article about it) does help some people- feminist or not- reconsider their expectations of men and work towards being more fair and kind, that's a good thing.  And yes- mindset does help, with things like that.  Social norms are actually quite powerful.

[Pyraxis]

What?! Listen to an argument and change your mindset? Never!!! Arguments are merely an example to show everyone else you're right.

[El]

What?! Listen to an argument and change your mindset? Never!!! Arguments are merely an example to show everyone else you're right.

That's a load of crap.  Most arguments are about personal growth.  Every argument I can think of was about personal growth.  Show me examples of arguments that were just about being right.

[Yuri Bezmenov]

What?! Listen to an argument and change your mindset? Never!!! Arguments are merely an example to show everyone else you're right.

That's a load of crap.  Most arguments are about personal growth.  Every argument I can think of was about personal growth.  Show me examples of arguments that were just about being right.

 

[odeon]

I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

[odeon]

I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Yes. Yes it is.



Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 

So quite a Catch 22, according to you. Change anything and we're dragging men down. Keep it the way it is and the situation remains unchanged and women are effectively kept out.

I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities.

That's not how things are being done, and you know it.

I know they aren't, which is why I posted. Glad we finally agree there aren't equal opportunities but surprised it took you so long to acknowledge it.

[odeon]

Oh, and Rage: I notice that you asked me for examples of positive empowerment but have not yet commented my reply.

Take your time.

I asked you for something and you haven't answered.

You asked me for examples and I provided them.

But it's OK. I realise finding arguments for your cause is not easy.

[odeon]

I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

That's not the feminism that is out there that annoys everyone though. No one in their right mind is against meritocracy.

The feminism that is pissing everyone off is the feminism  that demands forced equality of outcomes regardless of how little effort women have to put in to achieve what men have achieved through hard work.

These feminists are entryists who infiltrate spaces that they did not create, then demand that they be put in charge of everything and if you don't give in to their demands, you are slandered as a harasser of women and a rape apologist.

This modern strain of fashion victimhood hipster feminism actually advocates a Victorian sexual moral ethic where men must treat women as special snowflakes in need of special help and consideration, while getting nothing in return. Women, on the other hand, get all the freedom and access to the best that society has to offer while pawning all the responsibility ans hard work to (mostly) working class men.

I know, which is why I would have thought that Rage et al would acknowledge this rather than whatever it is that they're trying to do now. Arguing that there isn't discrimination in higher education and science is not easy and I guess it's why Rage is opting for holding his breath and hoping that's a good enough retort.

[Al Swearegen]

I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

OK, then again are you talking about about equal opportunities or equal outcomes. You know they are two very different things and not mutually inclusive (and that the answer is not "Yes")

[RageBeoulve]

I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Yes. Yes it is.



Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 

So quite a Catch 22, according to you. Change anything and we're dragging men down. Keep it the way it is and the situation remains unchanged and women are effectively kept out.

I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities.

That's not how things are being done, and you know it.

I know they aren't, which is why I posted. Glad we finally agree there aren't equal opportunities but surprised it took you so long to acknowledge it.

You know I was referring to quotas rather than equal opportunities. There ARE quotas.

[Dexter Morgan]

What?! Listen to an argument and change your mindset? Never!!! Arguments are merely an example to show everyone else you're right.

That's a load of crap.  Most arguments are about personal growth.  Every argument I can think of was about personal growth.  Show me examples of arguments that were just about being right.

Unfortunately, a lot of people I have met in the Autistic community believe they are special snowflakes, and any type of self improvement is trying to normalize themselves.

[Gopher Gary]

I have to say I'm feeling very special today. 

[Yuri Bezmenov]

Did you check your privilege??   

[Gopher Gary]

Yep. It's still there. 

[odeon]

I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.

I was talking about academics, in this case, which is kind of different, around here at least.

OK, then again are you talking about about equal opportunities or equal outcomes. You know they are two very different things and not mutually inclusive (and that the answer is not "Yes")

Yes.

Seriously, I thought I was being clear.