Author Topic: Now listen here, feminism...  (Read 5560 times)

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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #285 on: November 18, 2014, 09:59:11 PM »
I never said I was a feminist culture writer, but lately I feel I need to say something. ‘Feminist culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s whining about things, reporting memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.

It’s young women writing on tumblr with blue/purple hair and collecting non-binary pronouns. Blogging passionately for hours, around the world, to cry about all the things that feminists want them to fear. To find out whether they should feel offended or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. You browse these listless posts, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are writing there.

‘Feminist culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works that they can concoct online ‘wars’ about social justice or ‘gender journalism ethics,’ straight-faced, and cause genuine human consequences. Because of 'justice'.

Lately, I often find myself wondering what I’m even doing here. And I know I’m not alone.

All of us should be better than this. You should be deeply questioning your life choices if this and this and this are the prominent public face you presents to the rest of the world.

This is what the rest of the world knows about you -- this, and headlines about hundred-thousand-dollar youtube videos or those junkies with the overpriced t-shirts. That’s it. You should absolutely be better than this.

You don’t want to ‘be divisive?’ Who’s being divided, except for people who are okay with an infantilized cultural desert of shitty behavior and people who aren’t? What is there to ‘debate’?

Right, let’s say it’s a vocal minority that’s not representative of most people. Most people, are mortified, furious, disheartened at the direction conversation has taken in the past few weeks. It’s not like there are reputable outlets publishing rational articles in favor of the trolls’ ‘side’. Don’t give press to the harassers. Don’t blame the entire humanity for a few bad apples.

Yet disclaiming liability is clearly no help. Social media websites with huge community hubs whose fans are often associated with blunt Twitter hate mobs sort of shrug, they say things like ‘Holocaust? Women have it much worse’ and ‘those people don’t represent our community’ -- but actually, those people do represent theircommunity. That’s what their community is known for, whether they like it or not.

When you decline to create or to curate a culture in your spaces, you’re responsible for what spawns in the vacuum. That’s what’s been happening to feminism.

That’s not super surprising, actually. While feminism itself were discovered by strange, bright haired pioneers -- they thought social justice would make conventions more fun, or that social media would make for amazing cross-cultural meeting spaces -- the extremist arm of the form sprung up from marketing scams to ‘media critics’. You know, young white women who gets their income from Patreon, who are 'harrassed'.

Suddenly a generation of lost women had marketers with hula hoop earrings whispering in their ears that they were the most important oppressed demographic of all time. Suddenly they started colouring their hair and started making echo chambers that sold the promise of diversity to kids just like them.

By the turn of the millennium those were echo chambers’ only main cultural signposts: No fun. Have issues. Get a Patreon and then a bigger Patreon. Be an outcast. Celebrate that. Block anyone who threatens the narrative. You don’t need cultural references. You don’t need anything but the narrative. Public conversation was led by an echo chamber press whose role was primarily to tell feminists what to buy, to score products competitively against one another, to gleefully fuel the “oppressed gender” atmosphere around creators and companies.

It makes a strange sort of sense that white men of that time would become scapegoats for moral panic, for atrocities committed by "cis white male shitlords" in hyperfeminist America -- not that the men themselves had anything to do with tragedies, but they had an anxiety in common, an amorphous cultural shape that was dark and loud on the outside, hollow on the inside.

Yet in 2014, the narrative has changed. We still think angry young women are the primary demographic for echo chambers -- yet average block-lists from the social justice space have grown massively year on year, with only a few sterling lists enjoying any success.

It’s clear that most of the people who drove feminism in the past have grown up -- either out of feminism, or into more fertile spaces, where small and diverse thoughts can flourish, where communities can quickly spring up around diversity, self- expression and mutual support, rather than upholding the narative. There are new audiences and new thoughts alike there. Traditional “feminism” is sloughing off, culturally and ethically, like the carapace of a bug.

This is hard for people who’ve drank the kool aid about how their identity depends on the aging cultural signposts of a rapidly-evolving, increasingly broad and complex world. It’s hard for them to hear they aren't needed, anymore, that they aren’t the world’s most special-est oppressed demographic, that equality and incusivity is ubiquitous.

We also have to scrutinize, closely, the baffling, stubborn silence of many media outlets amid these scandals, or the fact lots of stubborn, myopic internet comments happen on tumblr and social media sites. This is hard for gender feminists who are being made redundant, both culturally and literally, in their unwillingness to address new audiences or reference points outside of their tumblr- and twitter-echo chambers as their traditional domain falls into the sea around them. Of course it’s hard. It’s probably intense, painful stuff for some young kids, some older women.

But it’s unstoppable. A new generation of egalitarians and humanists are finally aiming to instate a healthy cultural vocabulary, a language of community that was missing in the days of “feminist pride” and special interest groups led by a product-guide approach to conversation with a single presumed demographic.

This means that over just the last few years, the real world focuses on personal experiences and independent people, not approval-hungry obeisance to the demands of a loud minority. It’s not about ‘equality’ anymore. It’s not about telling people what to think, it’s about providing spaces for people to discuss what (and whom) they want.

These straw man ‘social justice’ conversations people have been having are largely the domain of a prior age, when all they did was negotiate feels and Patreon and scraped to be called ‘oppressed’, because they had the same powerlessness complex as their audience had. Now part of an equality feminist job in a creative, human medium is to help curate a creative community and an inclusive culture -- and a lack of commitment to that just looks out-of-step, like a partial compromise with the howling trolls who’ve latched onto ‘social justice’ as the flag in their onslaught against evolution and inclusion.

Men and women alike want interactions about more things, and interaction with more people. We want -- and we are getting, and will keep getting -- tragicomedy, vignette, musicals, dream worlds, family tales, ethnographies, abstract art. We will get this, because we’re creating culture now. We are refusing to let anyone feel prohibited from participating.

“Feminist” isn’t just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use. Feminists are over. That’s why they’re so mad.

These obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-victims, these childish internet-arguers -- they are not my audience. They don’t have to be yours. There is no ‘side’ to be on, there is no ‘debate’ to be had.

There is what’s past and there is what’s now. There is the role you choose to play in what’s ahead.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #286 on: November 19, 2014, 02:14:07 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Yes. Yes it is.



Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)

So quite a Catch 22, according to you. Change anything and we're dragging men down. Keep it the way it is and the situation remains unchanged and women are effectively kept out.

I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities. ::)
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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #287 on: November 19, 2014, 02:17:49 AM »
Quote
Agreed and you won't have an argument from me re religious nutjobs. But on the other hand, bibles and such seldom deal with definitions. Dictionaries do. Quite a difference there.

I have to disagree with you there. To the religious nutters, there are many "definitions" of things in the bible.

Of course, but those definitions vary wildly depending on the nutter. There are so many interpretations that a serious discussion can be utterly meaningless.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #288 on: November 19, 2014, 02:42:11 AM »
Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)

This would be relevant if the environment of a men's workplace were actually a pure meritocracy, but it's not. Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class. There are a lot of small things over time that add up to a picture of a favored group.

I actually face less discrimination at work as a woman than does my middle eastern coworker. He has a better education than me with a math-intensive degree, but because it's from a middle eastern university it doesn't seem to count. When he tried to negotiate for a higher salary he was told he was going about it the wrong way (I think because of minor cultural differences in approach) and sent away. As a result he's a little more capable than I am in terms of pure skill but several rungs lower on the corporate ladder.

The point is that positive discrimination may not be an ideal solution but the things it combats are no joy either. It's not trying to drag people down, but to compensate artificially for the dragging down that has already been done, day in and day out, by the established system.

And we have arrived full circle to the conclusion I have nagged about before, eh? I don't want to be annoying with this, so I apologize ahead of saying it. I just think this needs to be said. Again and again, until people stop pretending it isn't there.

Quote
This would be relevant if the environment of a men's workplace were actually a pure meritocracy, but it's not. Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class.

Quote
Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class.

Quote
men of the dominant class

Quote
of the dominant class

 >:(

Do you understand what I am trying to illustrate here? Feminism and it's efforts are not addressing the only real and confrontable problem that exists in all this, in the present time. And before Scrap chimes in, Mras are not either.

It is just beyond my understanding why people still target things like "men of the" and such, when the obvious elephant in the room is CLASS. This is not to say that the strange perversion of Marxism that radical feminists and the many differently labeled collectives of the same do not attempt to address class and inequality, they just don't actually do it.

Its much like a really shitty doctor that treats the symptoms of an illness, rather than taking a look at the patient and diagnosing them in order to get at the illness. Indeed, the doctor often makes the illness WORSE rather than cure it with these clumsy actions. Much like all these social programs designed to "equalize" social and economic situations (sounds so nice :P ), the product is dependency and people who learn to be victims rather than independence and empowerment.

ITT: Trying to give people who've fallen into a run of bad luck a bit of money or something isn't the answer. The answer is to help them learn how to see the true enemy and confront them. Help them learn how to get the things they need and want without a finger up their ass every step of the way.

I know a lot of the people who would read a comment like this on the internet love meaningless arguments and would get into semantics with me until the end of time:

"Who is the enemy?"

You know what i'm talking about. Don't bullshit me. :P

The thing here is, Rage, that you don't seem to have a clue but you act as if you did, which is far worse. You quite obviously have no insight into the academic world (including research here) and so you assume that I'm talking about quotas and such.

I'm not.

And it's not a question of ability. There's no need to avoid a meritocracy, there (should be) no need to force a quota to even things up.

For example, it is a fact that women in the US have earned Masters degrees in biology in about the same numbers as men for decades, proving that there are no significant differences in ability, but fewer earn their PhDs, and the numbers fall even further behind when looking at higher academic positions. Why do you think this is?

There have been studies where random CVs with name changes (male to female and vice versa) but comparable grades and merits were distributed among faculties. The CV identified as a male's would have a significantly higher chance of hire, with a significantly larger initial salary.

Personally, I find this sort of thing hard to ignore.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #289 on: November 19, 2014, 02:44:05 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #290 on: November 19, 2014, 02:49:59 AM »
Oh, and Rage: I notice that you asked me for examples of positive empowerment but have not yet commented my reply.

Take your time.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #291 on: November 19, 2014, 04:22:17 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

We have that now though. Woman can be or do what they want AND have the protection under the law against discrimination.
With this mind, do women tend to choose similar jobs to men now? No.
Why not? Because women in general prioritise work/life balance off against higher wages. Where they want to though, they can. My daughter's best friend is goingbto be a carpenter, whilst other female peers have much more gender typical aspirations.
I support whatever my daughter wishes to be.
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #292 on: November 19, 2014, 06:08:09 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Yes. Yes it is.



Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)

So quite a Catch 22, according to you. Change anything and we're dragging men down. Keep it the way it is and the situation remains unchanged and women are effectively kept out.

I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities. ::)

That's not how things are being done, and you know it.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #293 on: November 19, 2014, 06:24:37 AM »
Oh, and Rage: I notice that you asked me for examples of positive empowerment but have not yet commented my reply.

Take your time.

I asked you for something and you haven't answered.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline El

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #294 on: November 19, 2014, 06:56:04 AM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.
Why "but," Dex?
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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #295 on: November 19, 2014, 02:24:18 PM »
I'm not talking about quotas, I'm talking about equal opportunities. ::)

Equal opportunity. Meritocracy. The best person for the job and all that. Double blind if need be.

That's not the feminism that is out there that annoys everyone though. No one in their right mind is against meritocracy.

The feminism that is pissing everyone off is the feminism  that demands forced equality of outcomes regardless of how little effort women have to put in to achieve what men have achieved through hard work.

These feminists are entryists who infiltrate spaces that they did not create, then demand that they be put in charge of everything and if you don't give in to their demands, you are slandered as a harasser of women and a rape apologist.

This modern strain of fashion victimhood hipster feminism actually advocates a Victorian sexual moral ethic where men must treat women as special snowflakes in need of special help and consideration, while getting nothing in return. Women, on the other hand, get all the freedom and access to the best that society has to offer while pawning all the responsibility ans hard work to (mostly) working class men.

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #296 on: November 19, 2014, 02:42:59 PM »
This video sums up the problem and my position on it pretty well.

Watch from 10:22 to 20:04

« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 02:44:34 PM by Dieter »

Offline Dexter Morgan

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #297 on: November 20, 2014, 09:28:20 PM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.
Why "but," Dex?

Because challenging this gender role is the responsibility of men alone according to many feminists, even though women and men reinforce it.

Offline El

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #298 on: November 21, 2014, 06:52:11 AM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.
Why "but," Dex?

Because challenging this gender role is the responsibility of men alone according to many feminists, even though women and men reinforce it.
So you were responding to "many feminists," not to me, then?
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Dexter Morgan

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #299 on: November 21, 2014, 11:16:17 PM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.
Why "but," Dex?

Because challenging this gender role is the responsibility of men alone according to many feminists, even though women and men reinforce it.
So you were responding to "many feminists," not to me, then?
Yes.  I know I have a history of making generalizations.