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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #270 on: November 17, 2014, 10:56:09 PM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


:LMAO:

Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #271 on: November 18, 2014, 03:04:12 AM »
This is why I just tell feminist flat out to shut the fuck up and then walk away when they start quoting the dictionary when I ask them what they thing feminism is.

So this is where supporting each other ends? Weak, Rage, weak.

Bad form, I know, replying to your own post, but seeing I mixed your post and Al's, I feel I have to point out my error.

I now realise no support was intended on your part.

Correct.  :LOL:

Not that I am against being supportive, but just as I wouldn't support someone's decision to steal my wallet, I won't support ideologues doing one thing and calling it another.

Its called lying, you see.

They lie when they quote the dictionary?

I'm afraid so. Nobody thinks that defines the ideology any more. Not really, anyway. They may even lie to themselves and rationalize their closely held belief, but they are still lying.  ;)

So I'm lying now?

Quote
feminism
/ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: feminism

    the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
    synonyms:   the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; More

Yes of course. That tired old tactic of quoting a written statement in order to justify the actions of unthinking ideologue. Its much the same with Christians and their idiotic habit of quoting bible verses. Often, they don't even understand what the verse was meant to mean.  :LOL:

Actually, the above is just quoting an online dictionary to make a point. Hardly the same as quoting a Bible verse, IMHO. Can you tell the difference?

That is exactly what religious zealots do though. They quote their favorite tomes in order to "make a point", often without having a full understanding of what the book says.

Agreed and you won't have an argument from me re religious nutjobs. But on the other hand, bibles and such seldom deal with definitions. Dictionaries do. Quite a difference there.

Quote
I'm not trying to be condescending here, that's just what I observe people doing. And often. I used to constantly do it myself. There's nothing wrong with quoting the material of a professional to support a claim you've made, O-man. There is a problem though, when a person does so and expects it to be the end all.

An argument about feminism does not necessarily equal an argument about the definition of feminism as listed in a dictionary. Not sure what you're trying to say here.

Quote
Some empathy and common sense is required, no? Say we were talking about a proven phenomenon, like a like that never reaches zero. One could illustrate the asymptote, right? They could even make a couple of little charts before drawing the line, showing several test points and the algebra required to get them.

Not following you at all. To a casual observer, you might come of as reasonable but knowing we were actually discussing how one lies by quoting a dictionary, I need to ask you a simple question:

WTF are you on about?

Quote
Now lets switch over to feminism, and the definition of it in the dictionary. Here is the quote:

Quote
feminism
/ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: feminism

    the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
    synonyms:   the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; More

On the ground of the equality of the sexes, it says. Hmm. Women's liberation, it says. Interesting.

This chatty style of yours, producing words without anything new, does anyone actually buy it, mate?

Quote
Now lets go ahead and look at the actions of feminism say, over the last fifteen years. Can you name one thing the establishment of feminism has done to this end, that does not involve bashing men and their identity? I don't believe the dictionary definition includes pulling males down, but empowering women. If the dictionary definition of feminism actually defines it, then finding me an example of this should be a walk in the park, sir.

I'll wait. ;)

See, you could simply have asked this directly instead of, um, I don't know what you were trying to achieve up there.

So yes, sure. Here are a few:

How about the fight for the rights of women in Saudi Arabia? This is both a human rights and a feminism issue, and one that is very nearly impossible to fight in situ. There have been a few advances in the last fifteen years, some of which are attributable to feminism. Your government, for example, does very little since they so love the Saudi oil and the money, so it falls to other initiatives to help women there.

There are numerous other such examples all over the globe.

The American Association of University Women (AAUW) has done a lot of work to help women in higher education, from providing funds to legal support and more. They keep doing this and their services are exclusively for women.

There are similar ongoing movements to help women overcome what's sometimes known as the glass ceiling, that is, the problems women face when climbing the corporate ladder. Although I'm sure you'll argue that every woman who advances on the ladder does so at the expense of a man.

There is something called the WISE Campaign in the UK that helps women pursue careers in science and engineering, in fields that were once considered impossible for women to even participate in, much less advance in. Consider the number of female Nobel laureates since the inception of the prize; still, more than a hundred years after the fact, very few women are even in a position to be considered.

The OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) includes what you might label as a feminist initiative within the office for human rights, monitoring gender equality in laws and policies, and encouraging women participation in elections.

The list goes on.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #272 on: November 18, 2014, 03:07:03 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #273 on: November 18, 2014, 03:07:45 AM »
You want me to do all your work for you?  :P

I see. That's unfortunate, Pyraxis. I can clearly see that the switch has already been flipped in this little exchange. Oh well.  :dunno:

:facepalm:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline odeon

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #274 on: November 18, 2014, 03:21:13 AM »
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline El

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #275 on: November 18, 2014, 06:54:54 AM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #276 on: November 18, 2014, 07:07:44 AM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Yes. Yes it is.



Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #277 on: November 18, 2014, 07:08:35 AM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

Indeed.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #278 on: November 18, 2014, 07:56:03 AM »
Here is how I see it.
Someone wants to say they are a Feminist. They believe in Equality between the genders and would love no discrimination to ever exist, nor sexism, but barring that, for there to be protections and people to be aware of their rights. No issue. They are what I call "Equity Feminists"
On the other end of the spectrum, you have radical Feminists. They want men to be culled and think they are all abhorrent. No issue with these crazies either.
The ones inbetween I have issue with. The ones who will actually affect any social change and who refuse to recognise any benefit women have over men and refuse to see equality in areas that women are equal to men in and who frame everything on a long line of sexist reasoning based around Patriarchy and Feminist Theory.
They are my concern.
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #279 on: November 18, 2014, 08:22:17 AM »
Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)

This would be relevant if the environment of a men's workplace were actually a pure meritocracy, but it's not. Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class. There are a lot of small things over time that add up to a picture of a favored group.

I actually face less discrimination at work as a woman than does my middle eastern coworker. He has a better education than me with a math-intensive degree, but because it's from a middle eastern university it doesn't seem to count. When he tried to negotiate for a higher salary he was told he was going about it the wrong way (I think because of minor cultural differences in approach) and sent away. As a result he's a little more capable than I am in terms of pure skill but several rungs lower on the corporate ladder.

The point is that positive discrimination may not be an ideal solution but the things it combats are no joy either. It's not trying to drag people down, but to compensate artificially for the dragging down that has already been done, day in and day out, by the established system.
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #280 on: November 18, 2014, 11:36:59 AM »
Tearing the legal system apart just to get more women in there isn't the only thing gone awry either. The positive discrimination in and of itself is not a good idea, and does not empower women.

"Here little girl. *patpatpat* Lets just get you some help trying to get ahead of those bad old men. Its not your fault you need a boost, I mean you're only a woman."

 ::)

This would be relevant if the environment of a men's workplace were actually a pure meritocracy, but it's not. Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class. There are a lot of small things over time that add up to a picture of a favored group.

I actually face less discrimination at work as a woman than does my middle eastern coworker. He has a better education than me with a math-intensive degree, but because it's from a middle eastern university it doesn't seem to count. When he tried to negotiate for a higher salary he was told he was going about it the wrong way (I think because of minor cultural differences in approach) and sent away. As a result he's a little more capable than I am in terms of pure skill but several rungs lower on the corporate ladder.

The point is that positive discrimination may not be an ideal solution but the things it combats are no joy either. It's not trying to drag people down, but to compensate artificially for the dragging down that has already been done, day in and day out, by the established system.

And we have arrived full circle to the conclusion I have nagged about before, eh? I don't want to be annoying with this, so I apologize ahead of saying it. I just think this needs to be said. Again and again, until people stop pretending it isn't there.

Quote
This would be relevant if the environment of a men's workplace were actually a pure meritocracy, but it's not. Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class.

Quote
Men of certain class and background have a much harder time of it than men of the dominant class.

Quote
men of the dominant class

Quote
of the dominant class

 >:(

Do you understand what I am trying to illustrate here? Feminism and it's efforts are not addressing the only real and confrontable problem that exists in all this, in the present time. And before Scrap chimes in, Mras are not either.

It is just beyond my understanding why people still target things like "men of the" and such, when the obvious elephant in the room is CLASS. This is not to say that the strange perversion of Marxism that radical feminists and the many differently labeled collectives of the same do not attempt to address class and inequality, they just don't actually do it.

Its much like a really shitty doctor that treats the symptoms of an illness, rather than taking a look at the patient and diagnosing them in order to get at the illness. Indeed, the doctor often makes the illness WORSE rather than cure it with these clumsy actions. Much like all these social programs designed to "equalize" social and economic situations (sounds so nice :P ), the product is dependency and people who learn to be victims rather than independence and empowerment.

ITT: Trying to give people who've fallen into a run of bad luck a bit of money or something isn't the answer. The answer is to help them learn how to see the true enemy and confront them. Help them learn how to get the things they need and want without a finger up their ass every step of the way.

I know a lot of the people who would read a comment like this on the internet love meaningless arguments and would get into semantics with me until the end of time:

"Who is the enemy?"

You know what i'm talking about. Don't bullshit me. :P





"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #281 on: November 18, 2014, 11:45:44 AM »
Quote
Agreed and you won't have an argument from me re religious nutjobs. But on the other hand, bibles and such seldom deal with definitions. Dictionaries do. Quite a difference there.

I have to disagree with you there. To the religious nutters, there are many "definitions" of things in the bible.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Dexter Morgan

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #282 on: November 18, 2014, 05:54:31 PM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #283 on: November 18, 2014, 06:24:22 PM »
Heard something interesting on NPR today.  A woman wrote a play about straight white males after getting feedback from queer and feminist academics at Brown University on what they would describe how the idealized straight white male would act.  Apparently the feminists hated the ideal, privelege-checking character because he was too weak and a loser.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/364760889/in-straight-white-men-a-play-explores-the-reality-of-privilege?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Personally, one of my gender-role peeves is the way men are expected to act.  That half the human race is so largely expected to pretend they don't have human emotions is not only shitty and destructive, but also, when you think about it, really just kind of bonkers.

But feminism is about helping marginalized men, too!   Well... kinda of.  It's on their to-do list.

 ;) Loled.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Now listen here, feminism...
« Reply #284 on: November 18, 2014, 07:53:06 PM »
I can. A quick google search is coming up with a lot of initiatives calling for things like affordable child care, paid parental leave, and equal wages for equal work.

Center for American Progress, Women's Initiative
Massachusetts Women in the Workplace Initiative
Obama Administration fact sheet on women's and family initiatives
National Committee on Pay Equity

And you're completely sure that none of these drag men down, rather than empower women?

If you, for example, fight for equality in research or higher academic positions, more women will probably mean fewer men unless the total number of positions is increased, which is unlikely. Is this dragging men down?

Out out interest are we talking equality of opportunity or equality of outcome because you and I know they are not mutually inclusive nor does necessarily even logically follow.

I am weak in mechanics and trigonometry. You could put me in highly intensive specialised tutoring and I would be none the wiser.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap