Now listen here, feminism...

[RageBeoulve]

Legislation isn't enough, Hyke. I'd like kids to stop being taught these divides and exceptions, and people to be aggressively ostracized when they display such points of view.

Not just legislation, but complete change socially as well.

You're more optimistic about the human race than I am, Rage.

No matter how perfect legislation and social construction, no matter how open and honest kids are raised, if corporations, or golddigging individuals get the chance to treat one group of people a bit less than others, for their own gain, they will.

There always needs to be awareness, a watchdog, looking out for that, and acting upon it, when it happens. .

There always needs to be awareness, a watchdog, looking out for that, and acting upon it, when it happens. .

Every living person. I'd like for a "If you see something like this, say it at the top of your voice" policy to be engrained right into the core of society.

[benjimanbreeg]

This all just creates more separation and taxes, as intended. 

[awiddershinlife]

I'd like for a "If you see something like this, say it at the top of your voice" policy to be engrained right into the core of society.

 

What a wonderful world it would be

[RageBeoulve]

I'd like for a "If you see something like this, say it at the top of your voice" policy to be engrained right into the core of society.

 

What a wonderful world it would be

A lot less classified. Seems i'm not such a shitlord after all, eh? 

[odeon]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

Back up your words, or answer this, which you really haven't yet, IMO:

What do you want to accomplish, here?  Do you just want to whine about how the mean feminists have done bad things and have a pity party under the pretext of moral outrage?  To you want to learn something?  Do you want to teach something?  Do you have a goal at all?

You've obviously skimmed all my posts and only read the parts where I was critical of feminism.  I stated very clearly what my position was, otherwise. I'm not even going to address your aggressive comments which have begun to resemble ad-hominem, rather just tell you that I have been very clear about what my goal is.

If you wish to have a discussion, perhaps you could calm down and address me as a friend rather than an enemy. 

weak.

Skimming people's posts and clinging to ideology without considering what they have to say is pretty weak, IMO. I can tell by the questions you asked that you did not read them.

That aside, if you do read them you will probably realize that I am not as opposed to your goals as it would seem on the surface. My goal is to empower ALL people. I am of the opinion that feminism on the majority in the west no longer tries to do that, especially with trans folk.

I think feminism has run it's course. Mras are a silly joke (although they are universally more inclusive, but that's not good enough). I don't know how much more simply I can present my views. If its not about all people, its bullshit.

OK, to clarify, then:  That is what you're saying your main point is, then?  When reading your posts, I wasn't sure if that was a tangent, or a new issue you had picked because some of your initial statements were going to be too hard to back up.

Ok. I will try and put things as simply as I can once more.

Unless a rights movement is universally inclusive, it is an effort to justify exception. Because of this, Feminism or Male rights advocacy are efforts to justify exceptions on the whole. They are both generally geared towards dealing with male or female issues.

One can move goalposts and say that they themselves do not feel that way as much as they like, but there is no utility there. I'll state my position one more time:

A rights movement MUST be universally inclusive, geared towards the empowerment of ALL. If it isn't, its horse shit. End of.


Join as one, or you are the problem. I apologize if that is not diplomatic enough, but that is my point of view.

Your approach is fundamentally flawed. While empowering all is noble and just, if every movement advocating the rights of a minority needs to be all-inclusive it's just never going to lift off. There's too much to do, too many different groups to track.

I fail to see why you shouldn't be able to say "I think group X should have the same rights as group Y".

While empowering all is noble and just, if every movement advocating the rights of a minority needs to be all-inclusive it's just never going to lift off.

Why?

Because even the simplest of movements would have too much to do. I think I already said this.

There's too much to do, too many different groups to track.

Yes... there is, isn't there? Don't you think that is basically what I mean?

Yes, I fear it's what you meant, which is the problem. You are basically advocating fighting everything at once.

[RageBeoulve]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

Back up your words, or answer this, which you really haven't yet, IMO:

What do you want to accomplish, here?  Do you just want to whine about how the mean feminists have done bad things and have a pity party under the pretext of moral outrage?  To you want to learn something?  Do you want to teach something?  Do you have a goal at all?

You've obviously skimmed all my posts and only read the parts where I was critical of feminism.  I stated very clearly what my position was, otherwise. I'm not even going to address your aggressive comments which have begun to resemble ad-hominem, rather just tell you that I have been very clear about what my goal is.

If you wish to have a discussion, perhaps you could calm down and address me as a friend rather than an enemy. 

weak.

Skimming people's posts and clinging to ideology without considering what they have to say is pretty weak, IMO. I can tell by the questions you asked that you did not read them.

That aside, if you do read them you will probably realize that I am not as opposed to your goals as it would seem on the surface. My goal is to empower ALL people. I am of the opinion that feminism on the majority in the west no longer tries to do that, especially with trans folk.

I think feminism has run it's course. Mras are a silly joke (although they are universally more inclusive, but that's not good enough). I don't know how much more simply I can present my views. If its not about all people, its bullshit.

OK, to clarify, then:  That is what you're saying your main point is, then?  When reading your posts, I wasn't sure if that was a tangent, or a new issue you had picked because some of your initial statements were going to be too hard to back up.

Ok. I will try and put things as simply as I can once more.

Unless a rights movement is universally inclusive, it is an effort to justify exception. Because of this, Feminism or Male rights advocacy are efforts to justify exceptions on the whole. They are both generally geared towards dealing with male or female issues.

One can move goalposts and say that they themselves do not feel that way as much as they like, but there is no utility there. I'll state my position one more time:

A rights movement MUST be universally inclusive, geared towards the empowerment of ALL. If it isn't, its horse shit. End of.


Join as one, or you are the problem. I apologize if that is not diplomatic enough, but that is my point of view.

Your approach is fundamentally flawed. While empowering all is noble and just, if every movement advocating the rights of a minority needs to be all-inclusive it's just never going to lift off. There's too much to do, too many different groups to track.

I fail to see why you shouldn't be able to say "I think group X should have the same rights as group Y".

While empowering all is noble and just, if every movement advocating the rights of a minority needs to be all-inclusive it's just never going to lift off.

Why?

Because even the simplest of movements would have too much to do. I think I already said this.

There's too much to do, too many different groups to track.

Yes... there is, isn't there? Don't you think that is basically what I mean?

Yes, I fear it's what you meant, which is the problem. You are basically advocating fighting everything at once.

Yes, I fear it's what you meant, which is the problem. You are basically advocating fighting everything at once.

I am indeed. The mere act of unifying would actually make a lot of the "everything" people would be fighting a non-issue, though. I'm not saying everyone has to be the same, but to create a united front of social justice and civil rights.  I say this because we actually are all fighting the same thing, but are being manipulated into fighting one another.

['andersom']

How do you think you can purge manipulation and greed and hunger for power out of the human race? How will you get people this fair?

I do admire your positive outlook on humankind, but it is naive. Never thought I'd be the one saying that to you. Over all, I give people the benefit of doubt, and start with a positive slate with new people. But, this is way too optimistic on humankind for me.

If it could work, it would be in a group that did not exceed ten people or so. 

[RageBeoulve]

How do you think you can purge manipulation and greed and hunger for power out of the human race? How will you get people this fair?

I do admire your positive outlook on humankind, but it is naive. Never thought I'd be the one saying that to you. Over all, I give people the benefit of doubt, and start with a positive slate with new people. But, this is way too optimistic on humankind for me.

If it could work, it would be in a group that did not exceed ten people or so.

It'd never work with the current or prior generations. This would have to be something started anew as the already established ideologues would resist change to the grave.

['andersom']

How do you think you can purge manipulation and greed and hunger for power out of the human race? How will you get people this fair?

I do admire your positive outlook on humankind, but it is naive. Never thought I'd be the one saying that to you. Over all, I give people the benefit of doubt, and start with a positive slate with new people. But, this is way too optimistic on humankind for me.

If it could work, it would be in a group that did not exceed ten people or so.

It'd never work with the current or prior generations. This would have to be something started anew as the already established ideologues would resist change to the grave.

How do you want to do that? You do not only need to get rid of established ideologies, also of inherent tendencies in people.

[RageBeoulve]

How do you think you can purge manipulation and greed and hunger for power out of the human race? How will you get people this fair?

I do admire your positive outlook on humankind, but it is naive. Never thought I'd be the one saying that to you. Over all, I give people the benefit of doubt, and start with a positive slate with new people. But, this is way too optimistic on humankind for me.

If it could work, it would be in a group that did not exceed ten people or so.

It'd never work with the current or prior generations. This would have to be something started anew as the already established ideologues would resist change to the grave.

How do you want to do that? You do not only need to get rid of established ideologies, also of inherent tendencies in people.

I'm pretty sure most of these are taught, not inherent. This could be quickly proven with a very simple experiment.

[Pyraxis]

You don't think manipulation, greed, and hunger for power are natural consequences of our brain and biology being set up the way it is?

What simple experiment can disprove the hundreds of double-blind studies separating nature from nurture?

[RageBeoulve]

You don't think manipulation, greed, and hunger for power are natural consequences of our brain and biology being set up the way it is?

What simple experiment can disprove the hundreds of double-blind studies separating nature from nurture?

manipulation

I think the social constructs we immerse our children in take this to the extreme in their minds. I do not think it is natural for our society to use manipulative behavior quite so much.

greed

No. The greedy will forever abuse those who are not. I don't pretend this is not a part of the human condition.

hunger for power

This is another iffy one. Pretty sure this is made a bajillion times worse by the shit society we pretend is invaluable. Celebrating single motherhood/fatherhood as if it were something to aspire to, pressing "the issues" like idiotic first world problems while hundreds of thousands starve annually in a single nation, and ignoring the obvious schemes of the oligarch which will eventually send many of our children to a pointless death.

Circumsision and corporal punishment are still perfectly acceptable behavior in first world countries. Public schools are basically propaganda hubs disguised as places of learning. I could bitch about this stuff all day. Its no wonder children are shell shocked, then often grow up to be mean spirited or power hungry adults.


I mention children more than once because they'd be the only hope of reversing a lot of this damage. Prior generations are too far gone.

[awiddershinlife]

My career is to increase the socioemotional health of families through play (best job in the world!). I work with dads who are the primary caretakers. Grantedly, in our society, when dads stay at home, it is because they are clearly the best choice and so do better than average. Many moms stay at home because  it is the expectation of society. That being clearly understood statistically, these dads are are really great.

These arguments that one gender is sentenced at conception for a specific role is so friggin ridiculous; . It has caused so much angst. Think of the people who have been raised by someone assigned to child rearing based on gender. How backwards is that? I say this as someone who was born a woman and who has always sought nurturing opportunities. I raised five children from birth and seven overall. I am in a field that is child focused. But my life is not for every woman and is not to be denied to any men.

It is an anachronism to assign roles based on gender. That said, every child deserves a nurturing parent.

[RageBeoulve]

My career is to increase the socioemotional health of families through play (best job in the world!). I work with dads who are the primary caretakers. Grantedly, in our society, when dads stay at home, it is because they are clearly the best choice and so do better than average. Many moms stay at home because  it is the expectation of society. That being clearly understood statistically, these dads are are really great.

These arguments that one gender is sentenced at conception for a specific role is so friggin ridiculous; . It has caused so much angst. Think of the people who have been raised by someone assigned to child rearing based on gender. How backwards is that? I say this as someone who was born a woman and who has always sought nurturing opportunities. I raised five children from birth and seven overall. I am in a field that is child focused. But my life is not for every woman and is not to be denied to any men.

It is an anachronism to assign roles based on gender. That said, every child deserves a nurturing parent.

You have my thanks for doing that kind of work. I can really appreciate that you understand the importance of a healthy upbringing for children. Its been my opinion for a while that this is the pillar that humanity rests on. Everything depends on it.

I also like that you recognize the strengths of the individual, disregarding the wedding tackle. It is true that women and men are generally different, but that's true of every individual as well.

Good post. 

[awiddershinlife]

I just quit my job. I love early intervention, but the drama was too much. Actually, the politics were too much. I had idiots who did not know how to do my ob telling how to do it  - me, a proud ODD.

I am now switching to dementia, and I bet I will love this too.The crazier, the better. But I plan to return to helping families of young children within a year.

They actually called the police on me! The police arrived, and within minutes were protecting me from the crazy admins! It was all kind of alien. maybe I will post the story.