Now listen here, feminism...

[RageBeoulve]

This thread is, sadly, not one of those threads that makes me glad to be a member of intensity (which some of the threads here on controversial topics actually do, because you can tell people involved are actually interested in getting new information), and is instead one of those threads that reminds me of the futility of arguing with people on the internet.

Rage was at least 50% trolling to start with, and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.  This thread's probably going the way he hoped it would.

and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.

Sounds like a splendid description of the bigoted female supremacist cult, but what do I know? I'm just a stupid ass white cismale with inherent privelige of over 9000 types. Props for at least staying away from insults about my sex life.

Want to see an abrasive thread about feminism? I can pull out a lot of dirty laundry. 

[El]

This thread is, sadly, not one of those threads that makes me glad to be a member of intensity (which some of the threads here on controversial topics actually do, because you can tell people involved are actually interested in getting new information), and is instead one of those threads that reminds me of the futility of arguing with people on the internet.

Rage was at least 50% trolling to start with, and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.  This thread's probably going the way he hoped it would.

and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.

Sounds like a splendid description of the bigoted female supremacist cult, but what do I know? I'm just a stupid ass white cismale with inherent privelige of over 9000 types. Props for at least staying away from insults about my sex life.

Want to see an abrasive thread about feminism? I can pull out a lot of dirty laundry. 

You're painting all members of a broad group with the same brush- almost exactly what you're accusing feminists of doing, of course.  You really just sound like you want to be angry, not like you want to talk about anything.

Yes, there are women who will self-identify as feminists who really mainly just have problems with men and want to frame that as some kind of political thing when what they really want is to bash men.  They're usually damaged from previous encounters with men who were, in fact, shitty human beings, and have generalized that to all men.  They turn me right the hell off as well; they're profoundly annoying at best, and destructive at worst.

That's not all people who identify as feminists.  There's other mindsets, including the one Pyraxis described, and the one I largely agree with, (that pretty much just wants people to treat each other decently regardless of gender (or, under the same broad umbrella, sexual orientation)).

Thus far, what I've seen you coming out with, Rage, are:
*insisting that no, but really, "real" feminism is about man-hating (which is simply incorrect, and you have no decent argument to that point- just anecdotes, generalizations and persistence of noise)
*historically, feminism was all about man-hating (again, simply incorrect)
*feminism is too narrowly focused and should also focus on issues like poverty and worker's rights (Which is a bit of a tall order- while components of those things have been/are within the range of some traditionally feminist issues, there's a lot more which falls outside of even the broader definitions of feminism.  Political focus on one issue while not focusing on another doesn't invalidate the focus, it just means the focus isn't comprehensive.  Autism rights doesn't generally fight to save the dolphins.  Doesn't mean the movement has a "and to hell with the stupid dolphins" subagenda.)
*stereotypes (again, anecdotes and generalizations persistence of noise)
*more anecdotes and generalizations and persistence of noise

What do you want to accomplish, here?  Do you just want to whine about how the mean feminists have done bad things and have a pity party under the pretext of moral outrage?  To you want to learn something?  Do you want to teach something?  Do you have a goal at all?

[RageBeoulve]

This thread is, sadly, not one of those threads that makes me glad to be a member of intensity (which some of the threads here on controversial topics actually do, because you can tell people involved are actually interested in getting new information), and is instead one of those threads that reminds me of the futility of arguing with people on the internet.

Rage was at least 50% trolling to start with, and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.  This thread's probably going the way he hoped it would.

and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.

Sounds like a splendid description of the bigoted female supremacist cult, but what do I know? I'm just a stupid ass white cismale with inherent privelige of over 9000 types. Props for at least staying away from insults about my sex life.

Want to see an abrasive thread about feminism? I can pull out a lot of dirty laundry. 

You're painting all members of a broad group with the same brush- almost exactly what you're accusing feminists of doing, of course.  You really just sound like you want to be angry, not like you want to talk about anything.

Yes, there are women who will self-identify as feminists who really mainly just have problems with men and want to frame that as some kind of political thing when what they really want is to bash men.  They're usually damaged from previous encounters with men who were, in fact, shitty human beings, and have generalized that to all men.  They turn me right the hell off as well; they're profoundly annoying at best, and destructive at worst.

That's not all people who identify as feminists.  There's other mindsets, including the one Pyraxis described, and the one I largely agree with, (that pretty much just wants people to treat each other decently regardless of gender (or, under the same broad umbrella, sexual orientation)).

Thus far, what I've seen you coming out with, Rage, are:
*insisting that no, but really, "real" feminism is about man-hating (which is simply incorrect, and you have no decent argument to that point- just anecdotes, generalizations and persistence of noise)
*historically, feminism was all about man-hating (again, simply incorrect)
*feminism is too narrowly focused and should also focus on issues like poverty and worker's rights (Which is a bit of a tall order- while components of those things have been/are within the range of some traditionally feminist issues, there's a lot more which falls outside of even the broader definitions of feminism.  Political focus on one issue while not focusing on another doesn't invalidate the focus, it just means the focus isn't comprehensive.  Autism rights doesn't generally fight to save the dolphins.  Doesn't mean the movement has a "and to hell with the stupid dolphins" subagenda.)
*stereotypes (again, anecdotes and generalizations persistence of noise)
*more anecdotes and generalizations and persistence of noise

What do you want to accomplish, here?  Do you just want to whine about how the mean feminists have done bad things and have a pity party under the pretext of moral outrage?  To you want to learn something?  Do you want to teach something?  Do you have a goal at all?

Wrong. On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic. I am not talking about the few individuals who are actually decent, i'm talking about the actions and effects of "feminism".

Why do people always say the same thing when I speak of feminism honestly?

[awiddershinlife]

yaaawwwwwn...excuse me. very predictable. glad to know that you're so well acquainted with a plethora of feminists, rage.

['andersom']

Wrong. On the whole, aspergers are angry and violent. I am not talking about the few individuals who are actually decent, i'm talking about the actions and effects of "aspergers".

Why do people always say the same thing when I speak of autism honestly?

minor adaptions

['andersom']

Rage, you pick out extreme types, claiming to be feminist. And then you say that is third generation feminism.

It is not what I see in main stream third generation feminism. There is a lot of sensible thoughts to be found in main stream feminism. Feminism is the name it historically has. I would not mind it being changed into gender issues. Outcome would not be that different. It offers a pov based on gender differences. And yes, those differences, not only in general differences in biology and such, but also in non related behaviour and rights are there and will always be there. It is imperative to keep an eye on that.

Main stream third generation feminist in my country?

They want more parental leave for fathers. Because in Scandinavian countries fathers have just as much right on parental leave as mothers. And there you will not see the gap in career options between men and women.
Are men evil that in my country women have less chance for a nice job when in a relationship at a fertile age than men? No, of course not. Economically it makes sense to hire the man, who will not be away for ten weeks when a baby is born. If you make the chance that a man has a right to get that leave as big as for a woman, both men and women have the same chance for the job.
That will make women financially more independent. It will make that men get to care more for their kids. It will make that after a divorce less alimony will be paid, and less kids will end up estranged from one parent, because both of them raised them.

Another big issue is that women working is not that long a tradition yet. There is no tradition of women taking good care of their pension and things like that either. So, third wave feminism aims at women to become more financially independent, not depending on their spouses or exes.

Gender differences in the west? Two weeks ago a woman won a case against an insurance company. She had insured her income well, and got a big accident, losing the capacity to do her job. The insurance decided to pay out a lot less, based on the fact that she was a woman, and therefor would probably miss ten years out of her working career.

Gender differences in the west? Today in the newspaper, alarming figures about boys from lower income/education families. Till recently, both sons and daughters from those families would get more education than their parents ever had. Now the girls are still eager to get good educations, and lots of boys can't be arsed. So, now it is the case to look into this, what makes that those boys are giving up on education.

I read a main stream feminist magazine. Lots of the passion is about women abroad. Empowering them. I don't see things about hating men. Lots is about telling women in the west to take full responsibility for themselves. And an article about a female lawyer trying to fight the law, so that men with acknowledged kids out of wedlock can get the right to see their kids too is can be found in that magazine too.

If any company can get things done cheaper, by selecting on gender, they will. That has nothing to do with being male or female of the executives of that company. Feminism is not about hating men. It is about discovering where your gender can be an advantage or disadvantage in rights. And act upon that. Claiming rights where they should be there, calling injustice when they see it, and exploring where things can be fixed.

[El]

This thread is, sadly, not one of those threads that makes me glad to be a member of intensity (which some of the threads here on controversial topics actually do, because you can tell people involved are actually interested in getting new information), and is instead one of those threads that reminds me of the futility of arguing with people on the internet.

Rage was at least 50% trolling to start with, and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.  This thread's probably going the way he hoped it would.

and I'm not seeing any interest on his part of hearing opposing sides- he just want to keep on saying what he's saying.

Sounds like a splendid description of the bigoted female supremacist cult, but what do I know? I'm just a stupid ass white cismale with inherent privelige of over 9000 types. Props for at least staying away from insults about my sex life.

Want to see an abrasive thread about feminism? I can pull out a lot of dirty laundry. 

You're painting all members of a broad group with the same brush- almost exactly what you're accusing feminists of doing, of course.  You really just sound like you want to be angry, not like you want to talk about anything.

Yes, there are women who will self-identify as feminists who really mainly just have problems with men and want to frame that as some kind of political thing when what they really want is to bash men.  They're usually damaged from previous encounters with men who were, in fact, shitty human beings, and have generalized that to all men.  They turn me right the hell off as well; they're profoundly annoying at best, and destructive at worst.

That's not all people who identify as feminists.  There's other mindsets, including the one Pyraxis described, and the one I largely agree with, (that pretty much just wants people to treat each other decently regardless of gender (or, under the same broad umbrella, sexual orientation)).

Thus far, what I've seen you coming out with, Rage, are:
*insisting that no, but really, "real" feminism is about man-hating (which is simply incorrect, and you have no decent argument to that point- just anecdotes, generalizations and persistence of noise)
*historically, feminism was all about man-hating (again, simply incorrect)
*feminism is too narrowly focused and should also focus on issues like poverty and worker's rights (Which is a bit of a tall order- while components of those things have been/are within the range of some traditionally feminist issues, there's a lot more which falls outside of even the broader definitions of feminism.  Political focus on one issue while not focusing on another doesn't invalidate the focus, it just means the focus isn't comprehensive.  Autism rights doesn't generally fight to save the dolphins.  Doesn't mean the movement has a "and to hell with the stupid dolphins" subagenda.)
*stereotypes (again, anecdotes and generalizations persistence of noise)
*more anecdotes and generalizations and persistence of noise

What do you want to accomplish, here?  Do you just want to whine about how the mean feminists have done bad things and have a pity party under the pretext of moral outrage?  To you want to learn something?  Do you want to teach something?  Do you have a goal at all?

Wrong. On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic. I am not talking about the few individuals who are actually decent, i'm talking about the actions and effects of "feminism".

Why do people always say the same thing when I speak of feminism honestly?

Weak.

[odeon]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

[Yuri Bezmenov]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

I don't think it's possible to "back up" that assertion through anything other than anecdotal evidence.

Of the feminists that I personally know, it's a 50/50 mix which is still far too many.

The angry and toxic feminists tend to be mentally ill too. (lots of BPD's and social anxiety disorder)

[RageBeoulve]

Wrong. On the whole, aspergers are angry and violent. I am not talking about the few individuals who are actually decent, i'm talking about the actions and effects of "aspergers".

Why do people always say the same thing when I speak of autism honestly?

minor adaptions

Big difference. Aspergers is not an ideology, and it is not largely interested in the invasion of all cultural aspects of society.

[RageBeoulve]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

['andersom']

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

Maybe explain how it is that you get to meet the toxic ones, and I get to meet the others.

Of course there are nutters who are feminists, or gold diggers claiming to be feminists, but that is not the bulk of feminists.

[RageBeoulve]

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

Maybe explain how it is that you get to meet the toxic ones, and I get to meet the others.

Of course there are nutters who are feminists, or gold diggers claiming to be feminists, but that is not the bulk of feminists.

Probably because you don't live in jesusland.

['andersom']

Wrong. On the whole, aspergers are angry and violent. I am not talking about the few individuals who are actually decent, i'm talking about the actions and effects of "aspergers".

Why do people always say the same thing when I speak of autism honestly?

minor adaptions

Big difference. Aspergers is not an ideology, and it is not largely interested in the invasion of all cultural aspects of society.

Of course I know aspies are born aspies, feminism is a pov. But, the analogy is not completely bollocks. It's using people like Volkert van der Graaf and Anders Breivic to desciribe all aspies with. And that is just as accurate as what you are doing.
And some people do try to use that tactic on autism.

['andersom']

On the whole, feminists are angry and toxic.

Is this just your opinion or can you back it up?

There are a lot of feminists, man. What do you really expect me to do here?

Maybe explain how it is that you get to meet the toxic ones, and I get to meet the others.

Of course there are nutters who are feminists, or gold diggers claiming to be feminists, but that is not the bulk of feminists.

Probably because you don't live in jesusland.

That deserves a different thread.