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Author Topic: Punishment or rehabilitation ?  (Read 327 times)

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Offline ZEGH8578

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2014, 01:21:45 PM »
@ Zeg

You are from Norway, yeah?  What do people there make of the 'Bastoy' prison in Norway?   The re offending rates are very impressive but not sure if people here would be willing to embrace the concept of such a prison.   Revenge and retribution seem to dominate when it comes to dealing with crime.

Bastøy is a little social experiment, just to have that said :D Michael Moore's docu made the misleading impression that Norwegian prisons are like that as a norm :D They are not! :D

And I find Bastøy, to be honest, a quite ideal setup. The inmates are given an oportunity to actually change their inner workings, to re-calibrate their impulses, if you will. Many of these petty crimes, such as assault or robbery, comes from a personality that is conditioned to behaving that way - and normal prison does little to recondition them. Bastøy, on the other hand, is a good example of a prison that indeed reconditions criminals into adopting a whole new mindset, and a new manner to react to triggers.

Reconditioning is something very unexplored, in many fields of lay-man psychology, and is often myth-ridden, such as the awful advice of telling people to "vent their emotions", since this conditions the brain (rewards the brain) into triggering emotional outbursts when you encounter hardship. People who scream, feel good when they scream, and reward their brain for triggering the need to scream. It is an emotional cycle.
(I'm not talking about "talking about your problems" here, that is healthy confrontation of your inner issues. I'm talking about acting-out on emotions, such as crying, screaming, punching pillows, such stuff)

You cannot "bottle up" your emotions. This is simply human semantics confused with human physiology. It may come as a surprise to many - but humans are not bottles, and emotions are not liquids: We cannot "bottle up". To quite the contrary: By bottling up an emotion, you condition your brain to sit back and relax, and take problems with calm and rationality.

I digressed a little there, but to illustrate what little attention we actually give the psychological possibilities when it comes to rehabilitation and reconditioning of criminal/violent/unstable people.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 01:24:30 PM by ZEGH8578 »

Offline bodie

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2014, 03:08:00 PM »
@ Zeg

You are from Norway, yeah?  What do people there make of the 'Bastoy' prison in Norway?   The re offending rates are very impressive but not sure if people here would be willing to embrace the concept of such a prison.   Revenge and retribution seem to dominate when it comes to dealing with crime.

Bastøy is a little social experiment, just to have that said :D Michael Moore's docu made the misleading impression that Norwegian prisons are like that as a norm :D They are not! :D

And I find Bastøy, to be honest, a quite ideal setup. The inmates are given an oportunity to actually change their inner workings, to re-calibrate their impulses, if you will. Many of these petty crimes, such as assault or robbery, comes from a personality that is conditioned to behaving that way - and normal prison does little to recondition them. Bastøy, on the other hand, is a good example of a prison that indeed reconditions criminals into adopting a whole new mindset, and a new manner to react to triggers.

Reconditioning is something very unexplored, in many fields of lay-man psychology, and is often myth-ridden, such as the awful advice of telling people to "vent their emotions", since this conditions the brain (rewards the brain) into triggering emotional outbursts when you encounter hardship. People who scream, feel good when they scream, and reward their brain for triggering the need to scream. It is an emotional cycle.
(I'm not talking about "talking about your problems" here, that is healthy confrontation of your inner issues. I'm talking about acting-out on emotions, such as crying, screaming, punching pillows, such stuff)

You cannot "bottle up" your emotions. This is simply human semantics confused with human physiology. It may come as a surprise to many - but humans are not bottles, and emotions are not liquids: We cannot "bottle up". To quite the contrary: By bottling up an emotion, you condition your brain to sit back and relax, and take problems with calm and rationality.

I digressed a little there, but to illustrate what little attention we actually give the psychological possibilities when it comes to rehabilitation and reconditioning of criminal/violent/unstable people.

I have not seen the Michael Moore documentary.  I have only read about Bastøy ( I have to copy and paste 'ø' so you might have to put up with a few Bastoy's  :laugh: )

The articles I have read did state that it was the only one of it's kind in Norway  (making reference to an inmate who had previously been in real prison) but there was a kind of hint that the people in Norway are inclined to think that way.  Like as if Norwegians are blessed with a double forgiveness gene that the rest of the world  are without :angel:   This has been echoed by the international responses I read  "It might work in Norway, but it wouldn't work here" that kind of thing.  Which is why I was curious about the public perception in Norway.

Anyway I do think it is a very bold social experiment.  I like it.  The men that I read about were indeed 'reset'.  (Is there a women's version? I haven't read about any)   They were not downtrodden, or humiliated or treated as something just less than a human being which goes on in many prisons.  The screws don't wear a uniform either.  They are treated as human beings, which of course they are.  They also have to make choices and decisions.  This is a good idea as many ex prisoners become so used to being told when to eat, sleep, shit etc that they simply can't cope when released.  These guys are not institutionalised.   They leave with a much improved mindset as when they arrived.
blah blah blah

Offline Lestat

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2014, 03:15:14 PM »
Likewise, I agree with zegh.

Prison should be about keeping those who are truly dangerous to society, out of it.

Paedophiles...well, thats the perfect example, of some cunt that needs locking up and the keys melting down with a welding torch. Of course some discretion on the part of judges and sentencing if any, is needed, as theres a great difference between someone a few years older and a partner a little under 16, and someone who goes round raping toddlers, dirty old men exposing themselves in kids play areas and the like.

I myself for instance, have been in a relationship like that, when I was 18-19 or so, not going to say publicly just how old the girl was, but got in a relationship with this classic autie girl, who was, well, not old enough. But does that make me a dangerous paedophile needing exterminating or removing from society? I don't think so. Loved her, so much so that we were engaged after a very short time (weeks from first meeting), and were it necessary, I would have dived in front of an oncoming train to push her out of the way, even if that had meant my completely certainly being hit and killed.

Its been years since I had contact with her, and to this day, I still think of this one girl, still miss her like crazy :(

Then you have on the other hand, the kiddie porn makers and distributors, the nepiophiles, child rapists and parents that whore out their children to nonces, or parents that stand by in a relationship, where the other 'person' is a violent chomo.


Also, I think ALL drug 'criminals' 'offenders' must be released and financially compensated for their time inside, as well as offered counselling for the emotional and psychological damage that IMO is inevitable from a prolonged prison sentence.

And prison is NOT a holiday camp. Don't make the mistake of believing in the bollocks that the papers print about how offenders are living the time of their lives inside. They aren't. Maybe in the lowest of low security, open prisons its a lot better. But in even lower security 'proper' prisons, its just not the case. Of the two I have been in, one of them, the non-max sec place, the conditions there could justifiably be described as 'medieval'. They apparently still 'slop out' in some prisons in the UK for example (having to piss and shite in a bucket overnight, and then dump the waste in the morning on unlock for feeding period.

The food...the food is absolutely dismal. Truly, truly horrifying in some cases. One 'meal' I saw served up, and got served (I didn't eat it), was a liquid slop, that appeared to consist of some sort of sauce liquid, and shreds of greyish brown animal flesh. I didn't ask what that was, as I was afraid of the question being answered. Pallid, greyish, septic-looking chicken pieces etc.

One guy's food put him in hospital, didn't ever see the guy return either. Although it should probably be mentioned that it was due to actual poisoning, someone was going to get battered, and the guy was a bully, so that person laced his breakfast jam and marmalade packets with a mixture of toxins isolated from various products available, plus some primitive biological agents. Some people have it coming, and I guess, the person that was on the receiving end of his bullying ways and violence, must have had enough and decided to take him out.

Of course, *I*, sweet, innocent, meek and mild little ol' me, would never do or condone such tactics, but I cannot honestly say I lost any sleep over his probable slow, painful death. Goes to show, never fuck with someone autistic. Brains can often be far nastier than the application of mere physical brawn (odd phrase, I've always thought. 'brains over brawn', as here at least, 'brawn' is a culinary abomination that consists of cooked animal brain). At any rate, guy was a major prick and had it coming:P

 (I don't actually believe in even the existence of drug crime, other than crimes of E.g violence associated with the substances being illegal and the necessity thereby, of obtaining them and distributing them through illegal channels, gangs etc., or of course, theft by addicts to obtain sufficient funds to ensure the continued availability of the drug(s) they are dependent upon, but those who simply possess, take, or sell drugs, without violence, they should never have been arrested in the first place. Offered [not forced to undergo] treatment and detox facilities if they wish to make use of them, but otherwise, not interfered with)


Another thing I think should be done, is to make damn sure people with autism, or other special ed categories, should have access to appropriate psychological support whilst inside, ignoring entirely what they are locked up for, a lot of us apparently, when locked up either do not get recognized as spesh, or they are, and are just thrown to the wolves. I myself, am quite capable of handling myself in a hostile situation, and putting someone down for good, if it is essential to do so for my safety. I'm not the biggest person, quite slightly built, although its a wiry, whipcord thin type rather than emaciated, and not the hardest, I'm no thug type either. But I can, and will make certain that anybody who fucks with me, doesn't do so more than once. By any means necessary. Up to, and including the 'B' and 'C' in 'NBC' warfare. If i can't take on a bully or thug with muscle alone, then they find themselves dealing with someone who is a lot smarter, and a great deal more creative than they are.

But there are many auties, aspies, who aren't so able to defend themselves, and who will get torn to pieces in most wings of most prisons. I think for autistic people, they should be offered the (completely voluntary) option of solitary confinement for the duration of their sentence, or to go for periods down the seg block if they need it. And whilst it is usually used for punishment, in the case of it being offered and then requested by the inmate, then it should be available simply as a place to be housed within the prison, without the associated loss of privileges that getting sent to the block otherwise entails, given how it isn't being used as a punishment in this case.

I myself would have taken the option for solitary, when I got banged up for that 8-9 months if I had the choice to do so. I don't need human interaction. Feeding yes, exercise, yes, but to socialize? lol, I have absolutely NO need for it whatsoever. Although it would have made it very difficult to get any heroin or weed inside, so perhaps that could be allowed as a privilege for good behaviour in such cases, get to order it from the prison canteen menu :D

I think, as an earned privilege for good behavior, that in the case of legal drugs, then even if not to be sold through the canteen, then friends, loved ones etc. should be able to mail in 'legal highs', 'research chemicals' etc. After all, a happy contented prisoner, is more likely to be a well behaved, model prisoner. 

Perhaps some categories of substance should be excluded, and violent prisoners not allowed access to E.g alcohol, stimulants. But otherwise, if its legal, we should be able to have such things mailed in. (not of course that banning the demon drink, actually has any great impact on its ready availability, I used to brew some potent fucking hooch while I was inside. Oranges, lots and lots of fresh oranges, cut up into pieces, a big bag of sugar, and many liters of fresh orange juice from cartons, bit of toast floated on the top, with some bread untoasted, on top of it, and if available, yeast, although that can also be cultured from some fruit skins)

Let it ferment behind the hot water pipes in a big plastic sack, until it swells up, upon which, it needs to be 'burped', and the CO2 released, tied back up and returned to the fermentation.

Takes a bit more than a week, doesn't taste fantastic. But I rather pride myself that I was able to start a minor riot on the wing with that stuff, several prisoners got pissed out of their skulls and went on the rampage xD

The resulting brew from that procedure, gave me a pretty surprisingly potent result, I made the mistake of drinking a liter and a half of the stuff, expecting it to be beer-like in potency, but whilst I don't drink wine, in alcohol content, judging from the dose-response curve it showed, I would hazard a guess that it was more like a very strong, or fortified wine. Had a kick like an angry horse.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2014, 05:11:13 PM »
Society deserves to be protected from criminals that do them harm. There's too many laws which incarcerate people for offenses which don't meet that qualification. Approaching non-violent crime with other measures than incarceration would eliminate the need to be concerned about rehabilitating prisoners.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2014, 05:35:10 PM »
There should be no prisons. Instead everyone should be able to defend themselves with guns. That means that really dangerous persons would in most cases be eliminated by sane persons.

 :thumbup:

Quote
Prison is the most inhumane thing ever invented.

I don't know about that part. If prisons must exist, then they should suck. The fact they suck is really their only big deterrent. Prisoners have freedom from the responsibilities of existing within a society, a freedom no "free" man will ever know. If it didn't suck then prison might be a little too appealing for some people.
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Offline renaeden

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 02:00:25 AM »
Mildly Cute in a Retarded Way
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 02:13:18 AM »
 :rofl: :LMAO: :rofl:

I can't stop laughing.

 :plus:
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Offline bodie

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 02:39:49 AM »
 :clap:
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Punishment or rehabilitation ?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 11:58:22 AM »
I fucking love the onion.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

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