Terrorism

[odeon]

Actually, this is not killing innocent civilians at all, according to their reasoning and their laws. You may not like fundamentalist Islamic Law (and I don't either) but I thought we were talking about deliberately targeting (innocent) civilians?

Islamic law deliberatly targets innocent civillians with made up bullshit "laws" which are meant for no other purpose that to dominate and controll people through intimidation. So to answer your question, yes, I have'nt strayed off subject. Islamic law is simply the excuse used to murder ones own people too keep them in line through fear.

You may have low opinions of their laws, but per definition, they are NOT targeting innocent civilians. They are acting according to an interpretation of the Qur'an. Remember, some countries consider the US breaking basic human rights (and relevant treaties--Guantanamo Bay comes to mind) and thus persecuting innocent civilians, but the US, predictably, doesn't agree (for more, see, for example, the Human Rights Watch page on the US).

An argument could be easily made to support the notion that the Patriot Act is in place to dominate and control the population through intimidation. On second thought, I believe such a claim has been made, by Americans no less.

[Litigious]

The nazis didn't break any laws by killing Jews. They actually took away their civil rights in 1935. So it's ridiculous to compare what's formally legal and not. It must be the acts carried out that count.

[Nomaken]

I wouldn't let the death of a family member ruin a good joke about them either.

[QuirkyCarla]

that's you but other people might get offended

[odeon]

The nazis didn't break any laws by killing Jews. They actually took away their civil rights in 1935. So it's ridiculous to compare what's formally legal and not. It must be the acts carried out that count.

Actually they did. The Nuremberg Laws took away their rights as German citizens but did not authorize the killings. The Jews were also persecuted and killed in Germany long before 1935.

The point I'm trying to make is that if we don't respect the rights of sovereign nations to uphold their own laws, there will be a lot of Iraqs in the future. I completely agree with you and Scrap that the fundamentalist Islamic Law as sometimes implemented is an abomination, but then, that's not the only set of laws I find abominable.

I do not accept the US as a world police because their actions and agendas have little or nothing to do with liberating undemocratic countries. In the case of Iraq, it's about the oil more than anything. If it had been about freedom or other relevant buzzwords, there are lots of other countries to liberate and China is a good place to start. North Korea is another, Saudi Arabia yet another, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

But then, the US would also have to do something about their own shortcomings, from Guantanamo Bay to the Patriot Act, from the acceptance of some forms of torture to the persecution of Muslims living in the US.

I doubt they will, anytime soon.

[ozymandias]

Whoa there, Odeon, I don't like what my country does either and if the last election was any indication neither do a majority of Americans.  In many ways I'm damned scared of the future, but, I'm also optimistic that the American art of compromise and /or moderation can get the upper hand from the religious/conservative fundamentalists.

As for persecution of muslims here, I'm not denying it happens.  But so far the voices of moderate muslims speaking out against their extremist bretheren has been oddly muted even in this country.

I don't want the US to be the world police, especially since it revolves around what the Oil tycoons, Saudi Sheiks, and international conglomerates want.  Not whats best for the country or our own people!

Yeah it gets pretty sickening what comes out of Washington.  But I'm also sick of hearing about how people from other countries complaining about regular Americans abroad and dumping on them just because they are "Americans".   That happened to some friends of mine when they were visiting Iceland recently!  It's making me rethink a future trip with our family to Europe if we're going to be treated like shit because of our nationality!

Sorry to rant, but I needed to get that off my chest!  Nothing personal Odeon!

[odeon]

Sorry about that, Ozy. I realize my post was pretty harsh but it's not personal, not against you or anyone else here. If I offended anyone personally, I apologize.

I know a few 'mericans, and they are all nice, intelligent, and peaceful, and it's sad how they need to be the ones to face all these accusations and take the blame. The Europeans--or anyone else--jumping on Americans abroad just because they are Americans are as bad as the fundamentalists, muslim or otherwise, that the 'mericans are attacking. Because it's the same thing. Can you see that? I hate mindless fundamentalism wherever I spot it. And right now, Muslims are the world's scapegoats, just like the Jews were some seventy or eighty years ago.

The fact is, though, that lots of good things are coming from the US, too. More good than bad, I'd say, from space shuttles to computer technology, from great writers to ditto TV shows, etc. And often necessary military assistance to those needing it. It's not all bad, not at all.

But it doesn't mean that I'll turn the other cheek when I see that people are summarily judged because of their religious conviction, and because wars are based on lies.

As for the persecution of Muslims in the US, I'm not the one accusing anyone. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are. They are keeping their eyes on the Saudis, too, just as they are watching Iran, China, Sweden, and lots of other countries.

[ozymandias]

No Problem, I realize that a lot of what happens is because our government wants to hog the world stage!  In many ways we have let the fear mongers have their way in deciding foreign policy.  Personally, I'd love to see us pull our troops out of the Saudi bases and stop sending so much money to Israel.  The politicians in Israel are as shameless in their manipulation of our foreign policy as the Saudi Sheiks are.  It makes me sick all the way around!

[Scrapheap]

You may have low opinions of their laws, but per definition, they are NOT targeting innocent civilians. They are acting according to an interpretation of the Qur'an.

Yes, according to the Qur'an, you and I are infidels who must be murdered. Low opinion of Islamic law is understatement. It's one of the purest forms of totolitarianism on earth. It hides behind the facade of a benevolent, loving god to hide it's true intentions

[Scrapheap]

........I hate mindless fundamentalism wherever I spot it.........

Oh this is GOLDEN!!! you make several posts apologizing for mindless fundamentalism, then turn around and say you hate it.....

You seem to be confused about who the mindless fundementalists are. 

[odeon]

You may have low opinions of their laws, but per definition, they are NOT targeting innocent civilians. They are acting according to an interpretation of the Qur'an.

Yes, according to the Qur'an, you and I are infidels who must be murdered. Low opinion of Islamic law is understatement. It's one of the purest forms of totolitarianism on earth. It hides behind the facade of a benevolent, loving god to hide it's true intentions

This is simply not true. Islam Online explains this quite clearly, in this article, When and How to Fight, and this one, True Teachings of Islam, among others. Read them, please (and browse for others if need be), but for clarity, let me quote the following from the Qur'an:

*{Say: "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it].}* (Al-Kahf 18:29)

You seem to be confused about what Islam really stands for. I'll give you a hint: it's not about killing infidels. Which brings me to your next post:

........I hate mindless fundamentalism wherever I spot it.........

Oh this is GOLDEN!!! you make several posts apologizing for mindless fundamentalism, then turn around and say you hate it.....

You seem to be confused about who the mindless fundementalists are. 

I am NOT apologizing for mindless fundamentalism. I am, however, reacting against the mindless islamophobia here and elsewhere, where otherwise seemingly rational people completely lose their perspective, choosing to believe in what the (mainly, but not exclusively) Western propaganda machine feeds them, instead of trying to use whatever brains they have to collect their facts with some degree of objectivity.

The fact is that the majority of Muslims are perfectly peaceful, tolerant people, just as the majority of Christians. In both camps, however, there are fundamentalists and those that will use the religion to further their own agendas. Didn't GWB, to pick but one example, tell the world right after 9/11 how he waged his war against terrorism in the name of God? That God was on his side?

[Eamonn]

 Hippies like you, odeon, will be brushed aside once Europe becomes an Islamic republic living under shariah law. Maybe then you'd appreciate the freedoms that will be lost to you under the tryanny of Bin Laden's cronies and you wont be so keen to appease muslim fundamentalists.

[Anonymous]

When I was talking about terrorists, I wasn't talking about fundamentalist islamics.  I was talking about all terrorists everywhere.

Something I protest is hating what you don't agree with.  You don't need to hate terrorists if you don't agree with them.  You don't need to hate islamics if you don't agree with them.

But what I really disagree with is considering terrorists cowardly.  I think considering terrorists cowardly is just an attempt to dehumanize them.  For one thing, killing yourself in the name of (from their perspective) freedom is just NOT cowardly.  As far as I can tell people who believe terrorism is cowardly are thinking that way because they think terrorists "choose" to commit terrorism rather than working peaceably toward bettering their society and attempting to diplomatically alter the political agenda of their country.  They commit terrorism because they feel like they can't change their society, and they feel cornered and overpowered.  And if you think they're wrong and being stupid and should obviously see this, keep in mind they are willing to DIE over their belief.  So whatever they believe, apparently the belief is strong.

Some would hate them because the terrorists view on how society and the world should be is different from theirs.  And since they are killing people in the name of that "wrong" belief, they are evil.  But just as a thought experiment, say that the entire world is fundamentalist islam, and you and a few hundred like you are the last americans left with belief in your view of equality, justice, and freedom.  You have tried campaigning, you have tried reasoning, you have gone door to door with your beliefs, and nothing has persuaded people to go over to your ways DESPITE people "obviously" suffering from their stupid ways.  Would you die to try and change that world?

[Leto729]

Would you die to try and change that world?

Christ did and He was not a terrorist.

Would I, I believe I would, I would give My Life if it could save Others Lives.

[Nomaken]

Christ didnt change anything.  He just died.  It was the billions of people who followed him that changed the world in his name, and they did kill people.  Looooads of people.