Iowa FTW

[TheoK]

What problems could the farmer have that he couldn't peacefully solve with his neighbours?

You are joking, right?

Have you any insight at all into the human condition?

You mean instead of getting along peacefully with my neighbours face to face we need to be oppressed by both morally and judicially criminal psychopaths who force us to get along peacefully?

These people are the ones causing Syrians being raped and tortured to death. These are the ones using the NSA spying on both individuals, corporations, nation states and international organisations. So we need those murdererers, torturers, war mongers and traitors to protect us from our fellow man? Brilliant.

For of course it couldn't be just these psychopaths creating most evil on Earth for their own benefit and power.

This phenomenon is common by people rejecting anarchism: "In an anarchy, who would protect you from all the wrongs that the state is doing to you?" Because that's in principle what you are saying.

We can take the shootings in Göteborg as an example, since we are already talking about guns. They are about drugs. Different gangs are shooting at each other. But if the drugs were sold in the pharmacy without a prescription, they would be easy to get and cost very little and the problem wouldn't exist. About the same people would be taking drugs as today, but no criminals would benefit from it. But that wouldn't be good for the state, because the faked war on drugs is one of those things that the state uses to justify its existence.

And this is also a topic where the state has brainwashed the citizens. Most people in Sweden believe that if drugs were free there would be full of drugged people in the streets, a lot more violence etc. But the violence that is now is because the drugs are illegal, not because they are easy to get. The state uses this twisted logic in all areas that it demands control of: drugs cause criminality because they are illegal. The state turns this upside down and says that it's just thanks to the state's criminalizing that it isn't worse. Just like with guns: gun laws are there so that it should be more easy to massacre the people. The state turns it to the perverted lie that they are there to protect the people 

[TheoK]

No one ever chose to have a government in the first place, not anymore than anyone ever chose to get raped.

Most sensible people wouldn't agree with you though. Most people accept that, while not perfect, govt is necessary

For what?

Let's go back to 1750. You are an independent farmer. What the hell do you need a government for? They only steal the fruits of your labour and send you to die for them in wars.

You go back to 1750. See if the state is willing to pay your bills. Me, I'm staying in 2013.

This was a simple example of why no one needs the state if they have something they can live on without support from the outside. Of course you couldn't be honest enough not to twist my words and use ad hominem.

Or we could invent the term argumentum ad pensionem: if you don't have an income from work you are disqualified from discussing abolishing the state 

[Semicolon]

If you are satisfied that you have a voice in your government, then don't feel that you need to impose American values on yourself. I would not want to live under a system where one branch of the government can do whatever it wants, given a majority, and I wouldn't want my taxes to support even a symbolic monarchy. To me, the basic principles that underlie the US are too antithetical to a monarchy or a state church to support either one. All people can't be created equal if some of them get special rights by virtue of nobility.

Sadly, people are not treated as equals in your country either. The methods are different, that's all.

True, but that's not all. All people are theoretically created equal in America. All people are not created equal in the UK. It sometimes doesn't work, but in my opinion, the US system in this area is better than the British system.

[TheoK]

If you are satisfied that you have a voice in your government, then don't feel that you need to impose American values on yourself. I would not want to live under a system where one branch of the government can do whatever it wants, given a majority, and I wouldn't want my taxes to support even a symbolic monarchy. To me, the basic principles that underlie the US are too antithetical to a monarchy or a state church to support either one. All people can't be created equal if some of them get special rights by virtue of nobility.

Sadly, people are not treated as equals in your country either. The methods are different, that's all.

True, but that's not all. All people are theoretically created equal in America. All people are not created equal in the UK. It sometimes doesn't work, but in my opinion, the US system in this area is better than the British system.

Billionaires in America are in reality above the law almost as sure as royals and aristocrats in some European countries, but I agree that the principles in America are better. Too bad it is often just theory.

[TheoK]

You should also look up the Zimbardo and Milgram experiments.  Essential knowledge for anyone struggling with the issue of authority. 

I know about the Zimbardo and Milgram experiments. I have read Zimbardo's book

Sorry but you have a limited understanding. Because Lit says so.

Adam is a typical city person. He believes in "parliamentary democracy" for real. I know farmers who on paper are less intelligent than he is but realistic enough to understand the fraud with "parliamentary democracy".

[RageBeoulve]

The US constitution is a touchy subject for you. I can't help noticing that it is when criticising it that you get mad and start with the name calling. Like here.

I think it's safe to say that it is sacred to a lot of people in the US. It is a weakness you have, IMO, because it can effectively keep you from evolving.

But I don't want to see the US crumble. It is a nation with problems but it is also a great nation, one that contributes so much more to the world than the nonsense that is usually on the news. Please don't think I dislike your country or your people just because I criticise your constitution.

Ok. I think we've reached the root of our disagreement. I see things pretty much the opposite of what you do. The U.S. constitution is actually one of the last American things in my country, and its beginning to die. My government has begun to completely ignore it and operate almost completely separate of the people which was not how this nation was designed to run.

I agree with Semicolon. If we're going to change the constitution, we need to make it much stronger.

On this [the text in bold] we actually agree. However flawed your constitution is, however desperately it needs a review, if the legislation that is in place is not followed by those who are supposed to guard it, you have a huge problem.

Not one that can be solved with guns, I think, but one that needs to be addressed somehow.

Glad we agree on something. Its a serious problem.

[Adam]

lol I am definitely less intelligent than u?

I love how you know that over the internet.

You are less intelligent, since it's obvious that you have a limited understanding of some things.

In odeon's case it is that he simply rejects facts that are too unpleasant. In your case it's a lack of understanding what it's all about in the first place.

How does a disagreement equal "limited understanding"?

Because obviously if you disagree with Lit, it's because you just don't understand it enough. I'm just not as intelligent as he is

[Adam]

Yeah I seen a few speeches from the conference.  Milliband's was excellent.  He spoke for over an hour with no notes or prompts. 

Before the conference I would have said the next election would be a battle of centre politics.

I now think it will be left v right.  I don't think Labour have shifted too far to the left.  Just enough.  Of course, any lean to the left, no matter how slight has the advantage of making the Tory party appear more right

(probably not making sense to most of you but hopefully Adam will 'get' my meaning.)

Would you happen to have a link to Milliband's talk?

Not a video, but here's a link to the transcript

http://labourlist.org/2013/09/transcript-ed-milibands-2013-conference-speech/

[TheoK]

You are a city person, not a sound and healthy country person.

[Adam]

It's just not that he disagrees. It is obvious that he often can't grasp the whole picture in a debate. In your case it's obvious that you can but that you avoid certain questions, drag up my disability etc instead of discussing the whole picture in an honest way.

It's obvious, is it? In what way?

in all honesty, I wasn't really viewing this as much of a "debate"

maybe if it had started out as a callout and I was paying attention right from the start...

I've mostly been following this on my phone just before work or before I go to bed. I skim through a lot of it. I#m sure I *have" misunderstood a few things you've said, but not becuase I;m thick - I'm skimming thru a thread on a fucking internet forum... not debating at a university.

I'm pretty sure I have at least as good a grasp of history, politics, psychology etc as you do.

In fact, judging by some of your remarks about farmers etc, I'd say I have a much better grasp of it

[TheoK]

As I said: you are less intelligent than I am and you live in a city, out of touch with reality. Sound persons live in the countryside.

You are like those idiots in Stockholm. They know nothing about the real world, since they live totally unnatural city lives.

[Adam]

LOL, so the only "real world" is the world of a country farmer?

If anyone else was making this arguments, I'd assume they were taking the piss

[TheoK]

LOL, so the only "real world" is the world of a country farmer?

If anyone else was making this arguments, I'd assume they were taking the piss

I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't even be able to sleep one night out in the real countryside. It's totally dark and quiet. You would probably feel anxious without noises and city lights.

[Adam]

Um, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

[TheoK]

Um, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

That shows how unnatural city people live. In my humble opinion that's one of the reasons why people like you have the views you have on things. It's much more common that farmers think owning guns is a right than city people, because city people are out of touch with reality.