Iowa FTW

[Adam]

If you are satisfied that you have a voice in your government, then don't feel that you need to impose American values on yourself. I would not want to live under a system where one branch of the government can do whatever it wants, given a majority, and I wouldn't want my taxes to support even a symbolic monarchy. To me, the basic principles that underlie the US are too antithetical to a monarchy or a state church to support either one. All people can't be created equal if some of them get special rights by virtue of nobility.

You won't find many people who are "satisfied" with the current situation.

I agree about the monarchy. Many people do. Not much more I can say on that really. Although as bodie said, it is mostly symbolical. It's not like a dictatorship.

[Adam]

You have parliamentary supremacy, correct? In the UK, Parliament can make any law it wants to. In the US, Congress can't legally enact certain laws. For example, Congress can't pass a law that declares someone guilty of a particular crime.

One of the biggest differences is the basis for the legitimacy of the government. In the UK, power is theoretically drawn from the monarch. In the US, the government's power is willingly surrendered by the general populace in order to promote the common good. We fought, as one nation, for our independence. I don't like big government because, under the American system, the people don't surrender any more power than the government needs to perform its basic functions. We have the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to enforce this.

I don't understand what would happen if your government started passing laws that a vast majority of Brits didn't like. What could you do about it? The Constitution is a way for the government to check its own power, and for the people to check the government.

There is plenty we can do about it. Protest for a start.

We have a scum-of-the-earth govt in power atm, but they will be voted out at the next election becuase people don't like what they're proposing. You get what you vote for.

Laws go thru several readings and thru both houses before they are passed. People can lobby their MPs to vote a certain way in particularly important issues

[TheoK]

How is it a natural right? I don't understand that.

To me, natural rights are things like the right to life, freedom of thought, freedom of speech etc

Where does a gun come in to that?

Everything that is not malum in se is a natural right.

ALso Lit, I find it amusing how your automatic response to someone disagreeing with you is always, "he doesn't understand this, he doesn't understand that, he doesn't understand tha concept of x, y or z"

No. We disagree with you. That does not make us stupid.

You are definitely less intelligent than I am. In odeon's case it's about that double bind. He knows that I'm right when I'm saying that the state might murder us one day, but that is a fact so intolerable that he chooses to pretend that it couldn't happen and instead talks into himself that the state is protecting us.

[Adam]

Also, here goes piers again, shooting his mouth off with false statements. Does anyone in England like him even?

I don't. He's a dick. I agree with him about guns though.

[Adam]

lol I am definitely less intelligent than u?

I love how you know that over the internet.

[TheoK]

If you are satisfied that you have a voice in your government, then don't feel that you need to impose American values on yourself. I would not want to live under a system where one branch of the government can do whatever it wants, given a majority, and I wouldn't want my taxes to support even a symbolic monarchy. To me, the basic principles that underlie the US are too antithetical to a monarchy or a state church to support either one. All people can't be created equal if some of them get special rights by virtue of nobility.

You won't find many people who are "satisfied" with the current situation.

I agree about the monarchy. Many people do. Not much more I can say on that really. Although as bodie said, it is mostly symbolical. It's not like a dictatorship.

No, the dictatorship is run by the government and the EU.

[Adam]

Of course

[TheoK]

lol I am definitely less intelligent than u?

I love how you know that over the internet.

You are less intelligent, since it's obvious that you have a limited understanding of some things.

In odeon's case it is that he simply rejects facts that are too unpleasant. In your case it's a lack of understanding what it's all about in the first place.

[bodie]

No one ever chose to have a government in the first place, not anymore than anyone ever chose to get raped.

Most sensible people wouldn't agree with you though. Most people accept that, while not perfect, govt is necessary

MP's are there to work for their constituents.  They represent (us) in parliament.  Some only have an interest in helping the rich get richer.

George Osborne is our Tory Chancellor and he announced today he is going to spend his  time going to court to challenge a European ruling that states big bankers can only limit the fat bonus they get to  x2 their annual pay.  He wants to help the few fat cats get fatter.

The leader of the opposition (Labour) have pledged to force energy companies to freeze their prices for 20 months if they get elected in 2015.  Many frail and old people will die this winter because they can't afford to heat their homes.

See the contrast?  I hate it when people say  "they're all the same"  they are clearly not.

[TheoK]

No one ever chose to have a government in the first place, not anymore than anyone ever chose to get raped.

Most sensible people wouldn't agree with you though. Most people accept that, while not perfect, govt is necessary

For what?

Let's go back to 1750. You are an independent farmer. What the hell do you need a government for? They only steal the fruits of your labour and send you to die for them in wars.

[Adam]

lol I am definitely less intelligent than u?

I love how you know that over the internet.

You are less intelligent, since it's obvious that you have a limited understanding of some things.

In odeon's case it is that he simply rejects facts that are too unpleasant. In your case it's a lack of understanding what it's all about in the first place.

Everybody has a limited understanding

And obviously I understand some things less than others

You do too

personally I don't think I'm less intelligent than you.

bodie - yeah I hear that a lot when we go canvassing. that MPs are all the same, voting makes no difference etc etc. A lot of people think that. TO an extent, they have a point. all the main parties are close to the centre these days. which is understadnable. But to say that the Tories and Labour are the same is just wrong.

Have you seen any of the Labour party conference this week btw?

A guy a know from my old office was on the stage behind Ed during his speech lol.

Liam Byrne made a speech the other day on welfare. made me think of this place

one of the things he mentioned was how proud the british people are of our NHS

apparently andy burnham made a good speech as well. haven't heard it yet tho

[TheoK]

No, they're not the same. You can vote for the conservatives, that are like cancer or the social-"liberals" that are "just" like influenza with pneumonia.

[bodie]

Yeah I seen a few speeches from the conference.  Milliband's was excellent.  He spoke for over an hour with no notes or prompts. 

Before the conference I would have said the next election would be a battle of centre politics.

I now think it will be left v right.  I don't think Labour have shifted too far to the left.  Just enough.  Of course, any lean to the left, no matter how slight has the advantage of making the Tory party appear more right

(probably not making sense to most of you but hopefully Adam will 'get' my meaning.)

[TheoK]

So - what need of a government does an independent farmer have?

[Adam]

Yeah I seen a few speeches from the conference.  Milliband's was excellent.  He spoke for over an hour with no notes or prompts. 

Before the conference I would have said the next election would be a battle of centre politics.

I now think it will be left v right.  I don't think Labour have shifted too far to the left.  Just enough.  Of course, any lean to the left, no matter how slight has the advantage of making the Tory party appear more right

(probably not making sense to most of you but hopefully Adam will 'get' my meaning.)

I know what u mean

And Ed often does speeches without notes or autocue I think. takes some skill to make a good speech like that.

it's good that we're getting some "big" policies out there. people have been criticising us a lot for not really speaking up and for being a weak opposition, so I think we really needed to start getting it out there now. I'm glad we've got some more concrete policies now and have explicitly said we're repeal some of the coalition bullshit

That's what people need to hear

I just hope we don't pander too much to the Right with immigration/welfare.