Iowa FTW

[bodie]

I don't have anything more to offer the great gun debate.  I remain a lover of guns, but still glad we don't have them for the masses.

It wouldn't stop me visiting the US and there are loads of places I always wanted to see.  The scariest thing about America is not the guns - for me it is the judicial system.  Not sure how much of it is true, but from what I see on TV - extreme sentences and of course 'the death penalty' in some states.  That is fuckin scary.  I can imagine being wrongly accused of something and never seeing Eng-er-land again. 

It is the 'death penalty' along with the general consensus (if it is general and widespread amongst the people) that it's ok to shoot a trespasser and if you happen to kill them - tough shit!  it leaves me with an impression of a blatant disregard for human life.   

 

[RageBeoulve]

I don't have anything more to offer the great gun debate.  I remain a lover of guns, but still glad we don't have them for the masses.

It wouldn't stop me visiting the US and there are loads of places I always wanted to see.  The scariest thing about America is not the guns - for me it is the judicial system.  Not sure how much of it is true, but from what I see on TV - extreme sentences and of course 'the death penalty' in some states.  That is fuckin scary.  I can imagine being wrongly accused of something and never seeing Eng-er-land again. 

It is the 'death penalty' along with the general consensus (if it is general and widespread amongst the people) that it's ok to shoot a trespasser and if you happen to kill them - tough shit!  it leaves me with an impression of a blatant disregard for human life.   

I also disagree with blatantly killing someone for simply trespassing or something like that. I would personally be damn sure someone was threatening my life before I pointed a gun at them and pulled the trigger, and even then i'd be aiming for their legs or arms.

[Semicolon]

I don't have anything more to offer the great gun debate.  I remain a lover of guns, but still glad we don't have them for the masses.

It wouldn't stop me visiting the US and there are loads of places I always wanted to see.  The scariest thing about America is not the guns - for me it is the judicial system.  Not sure how much of it is true, but from what I see on TV - extreme sentences and of course 'the death penalty' in some states.  That is fuckin scary.  I can imagine being wrongly accused of something and never seeing Eng-er-land again. 

It is the 'death penalty' along with the general consensus (if it is general and widespread amongst the people) that it's ok to shoot a trespasser and if you happen to kill them - tough shit!  it leaves me with an impression of a blatant disregard for human life.   

There are scarier things in America than the justice system. Actually, almost every other part of the government is scarier than the justice system. I have the impression, living here, that innocent people are rarely convicted and the guilty mostly agree to plea deals. Some of the laws themselves are objectionable, and the implementation of justice is sometimes questionable.

I don't know if you could say that any sort of consensus exists for any political opinion in America. It's just too diverse of a country, although there are occasionally issues that unite us. As far as I know, there is no consensus that it's acceptable to shoot non-violent trespassers, although many will see trespassing and breaking and entering as signs that someone means to do harm.

Incidentally, I see the government of Great Britain as scary. You pay money to support an unelected head of state and a state church; there's no Constitution and Parliament just does whatever it wants; you have few guarantees of freedoms as Americans would define them; the government interferes with every aspect of your lives; the theoretical basis for the authority of the government doesn't derive from the power of the people; and you seem to trust the government.

Those are completely off-the-cuff impressions; correct me if I'm wrong. I realize that some of those also apply to America.

[RageBeoulve]

I am inclined to believe that our own leader are no longer elected, Semicolon. Our president also now has the power to override congress and the house as he sees fit, I might add. In many ways, the "free" American society is indeed scarier than Britain.

[Semicolon]

I am inclined to believe that our own leader are no longer elected, Semicolon. Our president also now has the power to override congress and the house as he sees fit, I might add. In many ways, the "free" American society is indeed scarier than Britain.

[RageBeoulve]

I am inclined to believe that our own leader are no longer elected, Semicolon. Our president also now has the power to override congress and the house as he sees fit, I might add. In many ways, the "free" American society is indeed scarier than Britain.

I know. I hate to say it as much as you hate to read it. Maybe us and the limeys should be working together on this, hmmm?

[odeon]

And there's TA who will echo your sentiments.

I'll address this since my name was bought up.

I usually don't stay in these debates for very long because it boils down to the simple fact that people like you and Adam are of the opinion that another's rights end where your feelings begin. Do you have a right to have that opinion? Yes. Do I have to agree with it? No.

"Fact"?

Quibbling over a single word

I know that none of your words holds any real importance but this one was nevertheless worth singling out, considering its magical qualities in this context.

[odeon]

The US population is (roughly) twice the size. Yet, yearly, more than 11,000 people die yearly in gun-related incidents.

That's a lot, especially if for a moment entertaining your silly notion of the gun being just a tool. Do you think there are more than 11,000 screwdriver-related deaths yearly in the US?

But that's just silly, isn't it?

Yes, it's silly. It's a lot compared to the gun deaths in Japan but not compared to the size of the US population, that is 317000000.

Remember how to calculate percentages? Japan's population is roughly 130 million.

[odeon]

But OK, I'll consider the utilitarist argument for a short moment. How many people in Syria are being raped, molested and murdered now because they don't have the weapons to defend themselves? How many Jews died because they didn't have the weapons to defend themselves against the nazis? How many citizens of the Soviet Union, who couldn't defend themselves against Stalins thugs? Quite a few more than 11000 out of 317000000.

I didn't know there was a war going on in the US.

[odeon]

So how do we decide who is a burden and who isn't? Or do you just pick and choose yourself?

Lol no. You decide someone is a burden if they are only taking from everyone and not giving anything back.

bur·den 1  (bûrdn)
n.
1.  Something that is carried.

2.
a.  Something that is emotionally difficult to bear.

b.  A source of great worry or stress; weight: The burden of economic sacrifice rests on the workers of the plant.

3.  A responsibility or duty: The burden of organizing the campaign fell to me.

4.  Nautical
a.  The amount of cargo that a vessel can carry.

b.  The weight of the cargo carried by a vessel at one time.

5.  The amount of a disease-causing entity present in an organism.

tr.v. bur·dened, bur·den·ing, bur·dens
1.  To weigh down; oppress.

2.  To load or overload.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English, from Old English byrthen; see  bher-1 in Indo-European roots.]

Synonyms:  burden1, affliction, cross, trial, tribulation
 These nouns denote something onerous or troublesome: the burden of a guilty conscience; indebtedness that is an affliction; a temper that is her cross; a troublemaker who is a trial to the teacher; suffered many tribulations in rising from poverty. See Also Synonyms at substance.

5.  The amount of a disease-causing entity present in an organism.

I wouldn't want to live in a society governed by your rules.

[odeon]

/shrug

You didn't address mine. You are still defensive, though.

Explain to me how I didn't address yours?

You did? Where?

How do you like our hat? Cooked?

 

Actually, no. I don't think it's possible to underestimate you.

Thanks for confirming my point.

Sorry. Didn't realise you had one.

Explains why you come off as a fanatic. Religion starts where rationality ends.

Hah, i'm an atheist, bro. I just don't thing a nation's constitution should be taken so lightly.

You are the one saying that your constitution is sacred, not me. Plenty of legislation I don't take lightly, but it doesn't mean I consider them sacred or above a debate.

Actually the original topic was about allowing the blind to carry guns. I should know. I started it.

But I was wrong about this being merely about your feelings. It's clearly also about your religion.

Again, I have no religion. And yeah, that's what I said. This thread started on the basis of legislations in Iowa. Iowa is an American state. You would never have made this thread if you hadn't heard what was going on in this American state. 

So? I spot an unusually moronic topic on the web. The topic happens to be about Iowa's gun laws.

And you do have a religion. You treat the US constitution the same as the religious would treat their god. Makes the subject very difficult to discuss since you don't treat it rationally.

Beats your solution to use a gun. That's a common theme with people like you.

And this is our fundemental disagreement. You are being ambiguous on purpose, but I will meet this point directly. Pretending something is not there will not solve a problem. In reality where the grown-ups live, its common knowledge that one must address problems as they develop or they will grow into a larger problem. As to your ambiguous statement, I laughed.

Eh?

Are you really saying that you meant what you suggested? Should TA worry?

Beats your solution to use a gun.

Yeah whatever man. Use a gun for what? Do you even know?

There's an echo here. Could have sworn that I already addressed your reply to this.

You said it, I merely commented on your realisation.

It wasn't a realization. Dance around all you like sir, i'm actually trying to play ball with you.

But failing miserably. I'm only doing this for entertainment. Can't argue serious topics with the religious.

You can save more by closing down schools, too.

Its foolish to get rid of anything, which again seems to be a common theme with you. I said nothing of banning anything or closing anything down. I stated that the welfare state design in the U.K. would destroy my country, which is already several trillion dollars in the red.

One would think you had more important matters on your mind than guns, then.

Where did I suggest that you need the NHS, btw?

If you want a serious argument, produce serious comments.

I have been. You just don't like them.

I didn't see any, sorry.

Here's a question about your religion:

If ignoring the practicalities of getting rid of every firearm there is, if for a moment imagining it was possible (which, btw, I don't think it is), do you think the world would be a better place? A yes or no will do.

I have no religion, and no. People will continue to kill each other. You are looking to change the human condition, I think.

One would think that it would be a simple question to answer. It's called a hypothetical, Rage. Did you notice my parenthetical comment, in there?

The US population is (roughly) twice the size. Yet, yearly, more than 11,000 people die yearly in gun-related incidents.

Big problem with the language there.

There's a big problem there, that we agree on, but it's not related to the language.

more than 11,000 people die yearly in gun-related incidents.

How many of those were criminals killing each other, or being killed by victims of crime in self defense hmmm? How many of those were actually lives of law abiding citizens saved?

And you took the bait.

Those numbers (from Japan and the US) are directly comparable with each other. That's the point.

This topic is not about health care, though. It's an important subject but I suggest you to start a separate thread for it.

I'm not arguing health care and you know it. I used a very large number (195,000 deaths) to illustrate that there are other very important life saving things that wind up killing a lot of people. More than your 11,000 people, I might add. I don't hear you rallying the social justice warriors to ban hospitals, because they are high priority in your mind, right? (mine too, but so are guns)

So yeah, thanks for the dance. 

There's a big difference between hospitals and guns. Can you tell the class what that difference is?

Your dancing skills leave a lot to be desired.

[odeon]

If it is so debilitating that they are an invalid, then should be actively seeking help so that they can properly cope and resume being a productive member of their community.

And what if they are, and can't get help?

[TheoK]

But OK, I'll consider the utilitarist argument for a short moment. How many people in Syria are being raped, molested and murdered now because they don't have the weapons to defend themselves? How many Jews died because they didn't have the weapons to defend themselves against the nazis? How many citizens of the Soviet Union, who couldn't defend themselves against Stalins thugs? Quite a few more than 11000 out of 317000000.

I didn't know there was a war going on in the US.

There wasn't a war going on in the Soviet Union most of the time Stalin were murdering 10-15% of the population or so either. And Jews were taken to camps in Germany already in 1933 although not extermination camps. You can't give any guarantees what the future will look like.

[TheoK]

The US population is (roughly) twice the size. Yet, yearly, more than 11,000 people die yearly in gun-related incidents.

That's a lot, especially if for a moment entertaining your silly notion of the gun being just a tool. Do you think there are more than 11,000 screwdriver-related deaths yearly in the US?

But that's just silly, isn't it?

Yes, it's silly. It's a lot compared to the gun deaths in Japan but not compared to the size of the US population, that is 317000000.

Remember how to calculate percentages? Japan's population is roughly 130 million.

Yes, the percentage is "big" compared to the percentage in Japan. 11000 out of 317 millions is in itself a very small percentage, though. 0.03% of the American population is killed by firearms every year. So what? 0.1% of the Swedes are killed by cigarettes each year.

Now you will say that most dying of tobacco in Sweden are smokers themselves and chose that. But most Americans are in favour of free guns and chose that too. Freedom is never free.

[RageBeoulve]

There's a big difference between hospitals and guns. Can you tell the class what that difference is?

Your dancing skills leave a lot to be desired.

Apparently around 184000 dead people a year. 

And you took the bait.

Those numbers (from Japan and the US) are directly comparable with each other. That's the point.

You're still not answering my questions. I'm doing my best to play ball with you, man.

There's a big problem there, that we agree on, but it's not related to the language.

Yeah, its mostly just people like you who think pretending things aren't there is the best solution.

One would think that it would be a simple question to answer. It's called a hypothetical, Rage. Did you notice my parenthetical comment, in there?

I don't entertain childish fantasy.

I didn't see any, sorry.

I'm being serious for the most part, buddy. You're the one joking around.

One would think you had more important matters on your mind than guns, then.

Where did I suggest that you need the NHS, btw?

You brought up healthcare more than once. You seem to think it a good idea to inflict UK laws and routines on my country, so its only logical your healthcare suggestions would follow that pattern.

But failing miserably. I'm only doing this for entertainment. Can't argue serious topics with the religious.

I am -not- failing. I am trying to debate with someone who is completely unwilling to cooperate. I think i'm doing a fine job, considering.

There's an echo here. Could have sworn that I already addressed your reply to this.

No you didn't.

So? I spot an unusually moronic topic on the web. The topic happens to be about Iowa's gun laws.

You're full of shit, sir. This little particular quote exchange started because you were whining about Lit "always" having to pop in and make things about America. It was about America anyway. I pointed that out, that the thread was originally about legislations in Iowa, and Lit and I were discussing the second amendment.

Sorry. Didn't realise you had one.

Well don't strain yourself there, chuckles.

You are the one saying that your constitution is sacred, not me. Plenty of legislation I don't take lightly, but it doesn't mean I consider them sacred or above a debate.

You sure take another country's legislations lightly. Especially the ones that protect the only rights they have left.
(Which is I might add, the closest thing to something sacred that could exist for the American people. Nice work continually making fun of it, you fucking asshole. Watching other nations crumble is better than TV, huh?)

And what if they are, and can't get help?

If they are honestly trying to get help, here in my country and they somehow can't, then something is VERY WRONG. We're already about a step away from a welfare state.